Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan

I'm writing this diary to help disperse some of the noxious spin clouds occluding a precise understanding of the rules and procedures governing the seating of the Michigan and Florida delegations.  Many left-leaning blogs, contributors, editors, armchair pundits, and columnists have promulgated flawed analyses that proceed from the false assumption that suppressing the votes in these two states is mandated by some unflinching authoritarian set of rules that, in reality, the authors either failed to read or failed to understand.  The popularity of this distortion is further supported by fake delegate counters showing a race to 2025 by incorporating this bankrupt assumption, now littering the blogosphere like locusts.  Although it has become fashionable to mischaracterize suppression of Michigan and Florida voters as a foregone conclusion, the result has been a plethora of dishonest accounts of the race's state of that impede sincerity in our dialogue.  So I want to clear a few things up.  

While responding to a comment here on MyDD, it occurred to me that a straightforward Question & Answer approach would be the most effective way to pierce through the distortions.  The entire 2008 Delegate Selection Rules are available above in the hyperlinked word "rules."

Florida and Michigan Q&A

1. How many states, and which ones, held contests in violation of the timing provision in Delegate Selection Rule(DSR) 11.A?

Five.  Iowa, Florida, New Hampshire, Michigan, and South Carolina all violated DSR 11.A, which reads:

No meetings, caucuses, conventions or primaries which constitute the first determining stage in the presidential nomination process (the date of the primary in primary states, and the date of the first tier caucus in caucus states) may be held prior to the first Tuesday in February or after the second Tuesday in June in the calendar year of the national convention. Provided, however, that the Iowa precinct caucuses may be held no earlier than 22 days before the first Tuesday in February; that the Nevada first-tier caucuses may be held no earlier than 17 days before the first Tuesday in February; that the New Hampshire primary may be held no earlier than 14 days before the first Tuesday in February; and that the South Carolina primary may be held no earlier than 7 days before the first Tuesday in February. In no instance may a state which scheduled delegate selection procedures on or between the first Tuesday in February and the second Tuesday in June 1984 move out of compliance with the provisions of this rule.

Whatever the motivations in moving the contest date, Iowa's January 3rd Caucus, New Hampshire's January 8th Primary, and South Carolina's January 26th Primary are just as much in technical violation of the rules, as written, as the "disputed" Florida and Michigan primaries.  

2. Is the exclusion of Florida and Michigan mandatory?

No.  The decision to count or suppress these votes is as optional and discretionary as the decision to fully seat the delegations from the three other offending primaries in Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina.  The initial power-play ruling that, in effect, temporarily suspended certification for Michigan & Florida is subject to, at minimum, three more revisits.  The first will be the states' appeal to the Rules & Bylaws Committee (RBC) at the end of May.  The second will be handled by the Credentials Committee in the summer.  And if those Committees still intend to omit the 2.5 million voters in those states, there will be a vote at the Convention in August.  

Note that the RBC ruling, if favorable to Hillary, may still be challenged by Obama subsequently.  But consider the change in dynamic.  Instead of Hillary privately advocating for two states' inclusion, we would have Barack Obama publicly calling for their exclusion, an embarrassing position for any "uniter" in a democracy.  Can anyone really imagine Obama looking the camera in the eye and saying "I want to exclude the votes of 2.5 million Americans because of a rules technicality"?    

3. Why are people talking about a 50% reduction?

A 50% reduction in pledged delegates is the suggested penalty for a state in violation of DSR 11.A.  Nothing prevents the RBC from imposing a higher sanction (as they did for Michigan and Florida) or lifting the penalty entirely (as they did for Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina).  It's just as easily waived for Florida and Michigan as it would be for any other state.  

4. Would that penalty exclude FL/MI's superdelegates?

There is no clear answer.  The initial ruling, which will be revisited no less than three times, excludes the entire delegations, including superdelegates.  However, the states are arguing that the superdelegates (aka unpledged delegates) derive their authority from the DNC Charter and hence have a status immune to sanctions imposed by the RBC under the 2008 rules.  Secondly, the suggested (not mandatory) penalty for violating the timing prohibition in DSR 11.A is to deprive offending states of DNC members and "unplegded delegates allocated pursuant to Rule 8.A."  But, ooops, Rule 8.A. has absolutely nothing to do with unpledged delegates; it deals with the acceptable methods for weighting district-level proportionalities (e.g. past voting history in presidential and gubernatorial elections).  Unpledged delegates are defined in the rules under Rule 9, not Rule 8, so the language that strikes at the very heart of this matter is warped by a major error in transcription.  

That's correct: just when it seemed this rules debacle and primary season couldn't get any more bizarre, the rules governing the suggested penalty for the offending states' superdelegate votes has a big glaring typo in it.  It's anybody's guess how that will play out.  Either way, the penalty outlined is only a suggested penalty and may be waived (as it was for Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina) or appealed, or the superdelegates may have been untouchable in the first place, via the DNC charter.  

5.  Were the candidates supposed to remove their names from the Florida and Michigan ballots?

No.  No candidate was required or encouraged to remove their name from the ballot.  In fact, both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama remained on the Florida ballot.

6.  Why would Barack Obama remove his name from the Michigan ballot if he didn't have to?

Barack Obama's decision was a voluntary gamble he made for two reasons.  First, it allowed him to downplay and delegitimize a contest he was widely expected to lose.  Second, it allowed him to pander to the voters of New Hampshire and Iowa who felt that their first-in-the-nation status was being threatened by Michigan.  The strategy paid off and Obama won Iowa helping him amass a great momentum for the early primaries.  He, in essence, had his cake.  

But the tactic of removing one's name from an unfavorable contest to preempt a loss isn't one that should be rewarded retroactively.  Otherwise, Hillary Clinton would have been strategically correct to say, "Look everybody, I have a plan.  I don't want to lose in the Illinois primary.  Instead, I'm going to take my name off the ballot and then say that the votes don't count."  Her voluntary removal of her name from that ballot would give her no right to challenge the contest's legitimacy after the state voted or to imagine she was magically entitled to some "fair share" of votes never cast for her.  Nor would it help if she said, "alright, we can count the votes in Illinois but only if we split their delegates 50/50 and ignore the popular vote."  She would be ridiculed, and rightfully so.  

But this is exactly what Barack Obama and his most ardent supporters have suggested regarding the Michigan primary.  Who is he fooling?  Clearly, many.  But a closer and more honest look at his Michigan gambit shows a tactic that cannot be justly rewarded by silencing or nullifying (50/50) the voiced preferences of hundreds of thousands of voters.  

7.  What about Hillary signing the "Four State Pledge"?

The four-state pledge was simply a promise not to campaign in Florida and Michigan.  That was the full extent of it; it had no effect on the seating of delegations and still does not.  Hillary agreed to its terms and abided by them.  She did not campaign in Florida or Michigan.  Barack Obama agreed to the pledge as well, but actually violated both it and the DSR Rule 20.C.1.b. by concsiously running a cable news ad that would reach 94% of Florida households.  

The famous Four State Pledge has no bearing on the seating of delegations.  Nothing that Hillary or Barack or their surrogates said about the contests in the distant past has any binding on the RBC.  Moreover, if push comes to shove, not only may Florida be seated in its entirety, but Barack Obama can be stripped of 100% his Florida delegates by breaking the very rules his supporters love to celebrate.  

8.  Shouldn't the people of Florida and Michigan be punished for having a different primary date?

Absolutely not, because the voters in those states were not responsible for the primaries' shift in chronology.  The calendar changes were enacted by state legislators, an overwhelming majority of whom are not even memebers of the Democratic party.  Florida and Michigan have GOP-dominated legisilatures and one of the explicit goals of the move was to rattle our nomination process.  Unfortunately, they have succeeded thus far.  But blaming and punishing the voters in those states, who had no control over the decision, is not only extremely bad publicity, but it is also misplaced aggression.  

9.  Wouldn't seating MI/FL set a bad example for states in future primaries?

No.  Given that the universally deplorable processes that the party has set out for determining the nominee have come under major scrutiny in this cycle, they are likely to see a major overhaul before we even reach that stage.  Fanciful hypotheticals about the 2012 primary calendar are well overshadowed by the immediate interests the party has in resolving the nomination fairly and democratically and of course, winning the critical 2008 presidential election.  After this general election, the party will have ample time to concentrate on a more effective nomination system for 2012.  

10.  Isn't seating Michigan and Florida a dangerous option?

No more than coronating a nominee based on cherrypicked conjugation of which states count and which states do not.  When the smoke clears, it's difficult to comprehend that anyone would disown the "count all the votes" approach versus the "disqualify 2.5 million voters based of a rules technicality."  The latter simply rubs most Americans the wrong way on a moral and intellectual level.  Most opposition to counting all of the votes comes from pro-Obama results-oriented partisans, replete with the usual dash of faux outrage.

Further, that technocratic and inherently anti-democratic line of thinking reflects very poorly on a candidate espousing it.  Hillary is doing both Barack and the party a favor by keeping the issue relatively quiet for now.  And we wonder why she's always smiling while he seems so dismal and listless these days.  

But we need to be realistic and understand why Hillary remains in the race, despite the locusts of fake delegate counters that unapologetically (or ignorantly) misstate the state of the game.  North Carolina is Obama's last opportunity to pad his delegate total because the May & June contests overwhelmingly favor Hillary.  This momentum shift coupled with the seating of Florida and Michigan is going to ultimately give Hillary a convincing lead in every metric.  She knows this, as does the party.  Otherwise, they would have rallied around Barack Obama in droves.  His chances rested on continuing his February pattern of accumulating enormous margins and garnering enough of a lead that seating Florida and Michigan as is (which was the ultimate goal of the party) would still yield him a win.  But it won't.  

Hillary won the race when she won Ohio.  

Thanks for reading and Happy Primary Day (again)!  :-)

[MINOR UPDATE] Thank you for all the replies. I'll try to respond to as many in depth as I can as the night goes on. But I have an event to go to and then we're having a little NC/Indiana Primary get-together.
Poll
Let's also disqualify:
Illinois
Virginia
Maryland
Georgia
D.C.
South Carolina
Wisconsin
Guam
North Carolina
All of the caucus states

Votes: 52
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (1.66 / 15)

When will the good folks of MYDD let go of Fl and MI.......they ain't gettin seated as voted.....period........look for a new strategy to get hillary elected.....


"I am standing with Barack Obama to say, `Yes, we can!'" Hillary Clinton 6/7/08
by feliks on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:49:47 AM EST

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (2.00 / 10)

Thank you for this thoughtful refutation of all the arguments raised above.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:53:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (2.00 / 1)

The truth is NON-refutable, sorry


"I am standing with Barack Obama to say, `Yes, we can!'" Hillary Clinton 6/7/08
by feliks on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:18:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (2.00 / 4)

You didn't really offer a specific argument worth refuting so... shrug


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:45:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (2.00 / 1)

I have offered a argument and you dismissed it.  Either voting in a primary is a right or it is a privilege.  If it is a right you should be upset about MI & FL but you should also be upset at every closed primary where independents are not allowed to vote, disenfranchising a far larger group than that voting block in MI & FL.  If you think voting in a primary is a privilege then the DNC can punish states who break the rules by any means necessary and the independent thing is no big deal.

Also the minimum punishment is the removal of 50% of the delegates, it is a guideline, not the rule.


by matchles on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:30:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (2.00 / 1)

When people become Independents they should not expect to get a say in the candidates of the GOP and Democrats. If one is registered Democrat or GOP one should expect to get a say in their own party's nomination, otherwise why bother to register? When other Democrats can toss out my vote why should I stay registered Democratic?


by ellend818 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:26:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (none / 0)

Why?  Why shouldn't an independent be able to help choose who they prefer to vote for in November?    Your logic is confusing... how does letting independents vote limit your say in your own party's nomination?  


by matchles on Tue May 06, 2008 at 06:34:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (2.00 / 0)

I recall this argument from a different thread several days ago.  I responded to it.

As I said before, the "rights and privileges" theory may be at home in a constitutional law case challenging federal/state/local elections of officials.  But the Democratic National Party is not a state or government actor, a critical component for any constituionally based claim.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:10:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (none / 0)

Furthermore, this is much more a battle in the court of public opinion. BPK80, I would love a response to my earlier enumerated comment, though it's far down.


by Falsehood on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:32:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (none / 0)

You've included rights in the argument definitionally when you make the charge of voter disenfranchisement.  You can't say that the Democratic National Party is free of this sort of judgment when you inserted it into your own claim.  


by matchles on Tue May 06, 2008 at 06:30:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (2.00 / 0)

No.  You're free to infer the theoretical existence of a "right" from the discussion if you'd like.  Whatever the case though, it is not a constitutional right and the privileges/rights framework of constitutional law is inapposite here.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:32:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (2.00 / 7)

You failed to address any aspect of his argument on the merits.  Your response was petulent and purile.


by bobbank on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:46:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (2.00 / 3)

here is your rebuttal. the candidates, hillary included, along with the dnc agreed in advance that these primaries were meaningless. only when hillary needed them to have some claim to the throne did they "matter."

put another way: isn't it just a wee bit sad that her entire path to "victory" hinges on counting an election in which she was the only one on the ballot?

please.

nothing desperate here. no sir.


by jbill on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:07:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

ahhhhh, but... (none / 0)

hillary is above the rules.  remember the restoration (as her biggest supporter here -- dem dem -- put it)?  royalists don't recognize the rule of law applying to the sovereign.  she's above all that...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:13:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ahhhhh, but... (2.00 / 0)

Hillary wins if if if if if if if if if if if if .....


"I am standing with Barack Obama to say, `Yes, we can!'" Hillary Clinton 6/7/08
by feliks on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:42:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ahhhhh, but... (2.00 / 3)

Obama wins if if if if ?

What's the point of that.


by bobbank on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:56:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ahhhhh, but... (none / 0)

obama wins if if if we follow the rules agreed upon by all parties last fall.

hillary wins if if if we bend the rules in a manner favorable to her.

that's the point.


by jbill on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:04:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ahhhhh, but... (2.00 / 1)

Your ignorance of the rules is not a defense against them...

The rules agreed to are that the rules committee decides.

Hillary has that deck stacked in her favor.

So.... rules aren't gonna be going Obama's way.


by DTaylor on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:59:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ahhhhh, but... (none / 0)

Ah but the credentials committee has ultimate control, and besides a couple dozen controlled by Howard Dean, those are allocated by the victors in the other contests, meaning that Obama will have slight control over the credentials committee.


Senator Obama will be formally nominated on August 28, 2008 - the 45th Anniversary of Dr. King's "I Have A Dream Speech."
by brimur on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:43:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think that's called checkmate. n/t (none / 0)


by bookish on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:53:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ahhhhh, but... (2.00 / 1)

See above.  In order to rely on the Credentials Committee (which at that point may or may not be stacked with members from Florida and Michigan, who again then may or may not be able to vote on it due to the conflict of interest clause), Obama would have to publicly call for the suppression of 2.5 million votes.  That is a drastically different position to be in than the one he is today, where he simply hopes the votes won't be counted in a more "behind the scenes" and "hands clean" manner for him.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:25:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ahhhhh, but... (2.00 / 0)

right, but when obama is awarded at least 40 percent of the michigan delegates, hillary will be back up shit creek. her only chance at overtaking him in delegates is to award him zero.

that ain't happening.


by jbill on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:41:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ahhhhh, but... (2.00 / 0)

If we don't count the caucuses
and
If we count the popular vote in Florida
and
If we count the popular vote in Michigan
and
If we give Obama ZERO votes for Michigan

You don't win when you need 3 or more IF'S to make it happen

The superdelegates are intelligent enough to know this.


"I am standing with Barack Obama to say, `Yes, we can!'" Hillary Clinton 6/7/08
by feliks on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:27:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ahhhhh, but... (2.00 / 2)

Obama wins when we disenfranchise two entire states that are vital to winning in the fall.

So, he wins, we lose.

IMO.

Thanks for a great diary.


by OtherLisa on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:46:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ahhhhh, but... (none / 0)

as opposed to all the caucus states that Senator Clinton has Dissed and said don't really count...


"I am standing with Barack Obama to say, `Yes, we can!'" Hillary Clinton 6/7/08
by feliks on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:54:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ahhhhh, but... (2.00 / 1)

You mean like Texas where the caucus went to the loser of the primary it was meant to represent?

Of Washinton where there was a 34 pts swing from 1 vote 1 person to the caucus result.

And while we are on caucus why is it the Obama team is fine with the concept when it takes 2 hours to get a vote but Hates it when it takes a larger commitment as per the super delegate caucus.

Anyone can be in that caucus if they invest the time needed to be a member of the DNC.  Sure its a LOT more than 2 hours but you get what I am saying.

Obama winner of Caucus states will lose based on a super delegate caucus.........

Karma because justice is your friend.


by DTaylor on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:03:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

no democrat can win florida... (none / 0)

and it is beyond insane to assume they can.  florida has a history of polling well for democrats in the spring and electing republicans in the fall.  we call it the "polling effect," because (apparently) pollsters don't geographically represent florida's voters.  they overpoll in the huge populous areas and underpoll in the rest of the state.  don't count on florida in the democratic column until democrats are ready to step up and reverse the horrific damage done to the democratic party in florida in the 1990s...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:57:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (none / 0)

This is already addressed in the explanation above.  It's possible you overlooked it.  

.  What about Hillary signing the "Four State Pledge"?

The four-state pledge was simply a promise not to campaign in Florida and Michigan.  That was the full extent of it; it had no effect on the seating of delegations and still does not.  Hillary agreed to its terms and abided by them.  She did not campaign in Florida or Michigan.  Barack Obama agreed to the pledge as well, but actually violated both it and the DSR Rule 20.C.1.b. by concsiously running a cable news ad that would reach 94% of Florida households.  

The famous Four State Pledge has no bearing on the seating of delegations.  Nothing that Hillary or Barack or their surrogates said about the contests in the distant past has any binding on the RBC.  Moreover, if push comes to shove, not only may Florida be seated in its entirety, but Barack Obama can be stripped of 100% his Florida delegates by breaking the very rules his supporters love to celebrate.  

The pledge only refers to campaigning.  And FWIW, since Barack campaigned, he breached the pledge.  That means that even if the pledge did bind Hillary or the RBC, it would be voidable by Barack's breach.  

Nothing Hillary or Barack or any other candidate or even the RBC last year has any binding effect on the RBC.  Hillary is not on trial and Barack is not on trial either.  It's a states' appeal to reconsider the disenfranchisement of their 2.5 million voters.  It's not about some offhand comment someone made in 2007.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:20:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bzzzt! Thanks for playing. (2.00 / 1)

The four-state pledge was simply a promise not to campaign in Florida and Michigan.

Then why do you consistently omit the actual language she signed: "not to campaign or participate"?  Interpretations can differ, but you should not have to hide the details to make your case.


by McNasty on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:10:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (none / 0)

This is completely absurd. Barack Obama ran a national ad that happened to also be shown in Florida. His campaign spoke to the presumptive arbiters of the pledge (i.e., the state parties of the early states) and they said that they didn't consider his national ad buy (which happened to include Florida) a violation of the pledge.

And yet another statement about the disenfranchisement of 2.5 million voters--what about the millions of voters who stayed home because they were told their votes wouldn't count, or who voted 'uncommitted', or who voted in the Republican primary instead--you don't seem to care about disenfranchizing them.


by Brannon on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:51:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (none / 0)

Theorizing about who someone might have voted for or how many people might have voted in a different election eclipses the more compelling fact that there was a state sponsored election in which 2.5 million voters participated.

No election is flawless.  No one is arguing to exclude the results from the more appallingly illegitimate, misrepresentative and fraud-prone caucuses this season.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:37:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (none / 0)

What don't you understand? Whether you like it or not, the rules state that the DNC can hold a committee meeting and award delegates from a sanctioned state based on how the votes were cast:

Possible sanctions include, but are not limited to:
reduction of the state's delegation; pursuant to Rule 21.C., recommending the
establishment of a committee to propose and implement a process which will
result in the selection of a delegation from the affected state which shall (i) be
broadly representative, (ii) reflect the state's division of presidential preference
and uncommitted status and (iii) involve as broad participation as is practicable
under the circumstances;

Obviously, Hillary was familiar with the rules.


by skohayes on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:13:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (none / 0)

I think you meant puErile


"I am standing with Barack Obama to say, `Yes, we can!'" Hillary Clinton 6/7/08
by feliks on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:59:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (none / 0)

Picking on someone's typos reflects poorly on you.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:39:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (2.00 / 4)

All your above arguments are well and good, but you have to mention that all of this is politically motivated.  Hillary and her supporters voted to strip MI and FL of their delegates when it was politically convenient for NH and IA.  

Her supporters (including right-hand man Harold Ickes) had a controlling block of votes on the DNC committee that ultimately stripped the FL and MI delegates.  Then, when Hillary realized she needs MI and FL to clinch the nomination, the story  changes to "FL and MI are being disenfranchised."  Above all else that is the #1 fact of the situation.  Does anyone refute this?


"We have said since Iowa that this is a race for delegates."
-Howard Wolfson
by belicheat on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:44:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (none / 0)

As Howard Dean has admitted, they never would have imposed the sanctions they did (stripping all the delegates instead of half, as the rules call for), if they had known it was going to be this close of a race.
Even Obama, when he talked about it in September of 2007, said that if he was the presumed nominee, he would find a way to seat the delegates.

TAMPA - Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/sep/30/ obama-vows-do-whats-right/?news-breaking


by skohayes on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:34:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (2.00 / 1)

Not really much need to refute something that is mostly your opinion.  I do not think anyone is happy with the Florida And Michigan situation.   And if anyone thought that the contests would have an impact on the primary race we would not have had the rules in place.   The problem is the time to bring these issues up was before the races, and before the primary season, not after.   Same with the caucus arguements  after the contest is over is not a valid time to bring forward the arguement that they are unfair, or should not be counted.   If Hillary wanted changes she was probably one of the people most able to bring them about prior to the primary season. But it is not American to request changes to rules, and contests Ex Post Facto.

I understand that Hillary has alot of supporters.   And you really want her to get the nomination.   But is trying to invalidate rules and decisions that even Hillary accepted prior to the contests the way you want to do it? As much as I have heard about the Obama, hero worship, messiah worship, rockstar factor ect, it is the Hillary Clinton people that seem to rail against reality.

Sorry Caucuses Count.  Flordia and Michigan don't.  And all the states seating delegates "matter".   And 15 months ago every candidate in the race would have told you the same thing.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:50:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (none / 0)

The appellate process for the initial ruling is part of the rules.  I regret that so many people find this concept overwhelmingly confusing.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:40:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (none / 0)

Just out of curiosity, given the poll at the end how much of this was sarcasm?  The poll seems tongue-in-cheek.   But if that was the case I do not think you could believe the direction you were going with your diary.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:56:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (none / 0)

The poll was tongue-in-cheek, of course.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:21:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (none / 0)

I didn't read the whole thing, but I read enough.  Forgive me for being blunt.  If Clinton wins the nomination because she goes out and earns the votes in primaries and caucuses, then she deserves the nomination.  I will have an admiration for her because she was down, she worked hard and just plain out campaigned Obama.

If she wins the nomination through some kind of inventive interpretation of the rules or because some Superdelegates decides that the country just isn't quite ready yet for Obama, then I'm done with the Democratic Party.  Time for a new party.  Maybe Green, maybe something else.

What's that you say?  You are suggesting that a Supreme Court filled with McCain appointees would be far worse than one filled with Clinton appointees?

Perhaps, but either President has to get 60 votes in the Senate.  I don't think the next Justice is going to be another Roberts or Alito.

So put your clever little rule interpretations away.  Either win it outright or forget it.


by smoker1 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 06:14:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (none / 0)

this diary offers up some questions, and some "answers", but no solutions.

Those FL/MI "elections" will not count. And they shouldn't. Nobody has figured out a way to re-do the contests. (Who will pay for it?) A 50/50 split? Fine. It doesn't help Hillary and it's too little, too late...

None of this really matters because this election is over. Hillary can not realistically win. The superdelegates will pile on this week and that's it.

by power of truth on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:39:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Just so everyone knows (2.00 / 4)

feliks is on the Rules committee- he chairs it in fact-
by linc on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:17:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ooops (1.78 / 14)

I forgot the tip jar.  I'm not in the habit of using them.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 07:53:08 AM EST

Re: Ooops (2.00 / 6)

People don't really use tip jars on MyDD, as "mojo" seems to accumulate sufficiently without them, but I'll go ahead and tip you anyway for a very clear and cogent diary.  Thanks for taking the time and effort to lay this out.


by markjay on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:27:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ooops (2.00 / 6)

Thank you for the comment and for cueing me in on the netiquette here.  I am new to MyDD.  I didn't use tip jars often on DailyKos but thought they became universal.  I was once attacked for not using a tip jar on DailyKos.  I don't read that site very much anymore.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:39:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

i don't post tip jars there, either... (2.00 / 1)

some people do seem to think it's necessary.  do what you want (here and there)...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:30:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Forget something? (2.00 / 6)

Did you forget to mention that Iowa and New Hampshire asked for a waiver while Florida and Michigan did not?  Did you forget to mention that in 2000, when Michigan moved up its primary in violation of DNC rules, both Al Gore and Bill Bradley took their names off the state's ballot?


by Brad G on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:44:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Forget something? (2.00 / 1)

The facts! They burn!


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:15:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Forget something? (none / 0)

Al Gore and Bill Bradley were not required to take their named off the ballots.  It was an independent voluntary act that had no effect on the delegation's seating.  

"Waiver" is not a magic word contained within the rules.  That is your own shorthand for states' asking for the delegations to be seated, which is exactly what Michigan and Florida are currently doing.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:28:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Forget something? (none / 0)

Every point in the above diary is well taken - but doesn't change the fact that Hillary wants to change the rules After the fact.  In addition, she wants to 're-vote' or 're-allocate- the delegates.  What part of 'election' does she not understand???  You cannot fairly re-do a race - not unless circumstances are exactly the same as the initial - and that will never happen unless you are non-human beings.

Only splitting the delegates evenly in MI (which Obama indicated he would very much consider) and reducing the delegate count (say give 1/2 a vote to each delegate) in FL because all the names were on the ballot would be an even playing field.

Just as Obama and Edwards may have taken their names off the michigan ballot to satisfy the voters of IA and NH, so Hillary KEPT her name ON the ballot just in case something like this would happen OR to psychologically give her the advantage with voters in that only Hillary Clinton would be on the ballot - therefore whatever votes were tallied would appear to be in her favor.  She herself said (obviously to put a foil on her actions) 'i don't care if my name is on the ballot in MI or FL, it is clear the votes in those states do not mean anything.'

(by the way, the candidates did not consider taking their names off the FL ballot because if they did remove their names, those candidates would be considered 'withdrawn' from any/all future elections. (or something like that...in any case, can't remove your name)


by mariannie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 03:06:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

D*mn good diary! (none / 0)

Great work BKP80! The choice between equity and democracy on one hand and disenfranchisement and hypocrisy on the other really ought not to be that difficult for the Democratic Party.


Grumpy, reluctant, sore-losing, unhappy, irritable Hillary supporter for Barack Obama 2008
by DemAC on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:47:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: D*mn good diary! (2.00 / 1)

Thank you!


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:28:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ooops (none / 0)

BPK, I appreciate the substantive debate of the issues.  Thank you for bringing intellectual discourse back to MYDD.

The question that I am dying to bring up is what I've mentioned in another comment thread.  How do you reconcile Hillary's willingness to support the stripping of the delegates when she had a chance to stop it?  It's a well known fact that she had many, many supporters on the committee that made the decision.  

I just can't get past the fact that this is being spun as a "voter's rights" issue, when Hillary had the ability to stop it and did nothing.  Then, when her political survival necessitates, FL and MI become her rallying cry.


"We have said since Iowa that this is a race for delegates."
-Howard Wolfson
by belicheat on Tue May 06, 2008 at 01:49:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ooops (none / 0)

Thank you for your comment.  You raise a good question.

Here are some viable responses:

1. Both candidates had the "ability" to stop it by speaking against the ruling last year, but none chose to do so.  Hillary cannot be blamed.  

2. Most importantly, all candidates and committee members were operating under a different set of assumptions about the circumstances we would be in today.  It was assumed that the nomination process would evince a clear front runner such that MI/FL could be seated without controversy in the summer.  The states' interests in moving their primaries was to influence the process more strongly and to reap the economic boost that comes with heavy campaigning in that state.  Those were the protectionist interests the committee sought to undermine.  They have done so; Michigan and Florida did not influence the process and reaped no economic boost.  

3. Errant remarks by Hillary Clinton have no bearing on the RBC today.  This is a states' appeal concerning the enfranchisement of their 2.5 million voters.  It's not about who stands to benefit from that or "who said what" in 2007 under a completely different set of circumstances.  

Hope that helps for now.  Thanks for the comment!


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:34:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ooops (2.00 / 0)

So, if Hillary can't be blamed for the disenfranchisement, how can Obama?  Obviously its a screwed up situation, but the only completely fair solution is to simply throw both elections out.  

A cursory glance at any credible international guidelines for fair elections shows that the results of both FL and MI cannot be counted.  According to the OSCE Election Observation Handbook - page 16(http://www.osce.org/publications/odihr/2 005/04/14004_240_en.pdf)  

Fair election commitments require that:

"political campaigning can be conducted in a free and fair atmosphere
without administrative action, violence, intimidation, or fear of retribution against
candidates, parties, or voters"

Campaigning was not allowed by either party in Florida.  At that early point in the race, Obama was put at a disadvantage by not being able to campaign.  Clinton enjoyed a huge name recognition boost, while many voters may not have had any opportunity to formulate an opinion, good or bad, about Obama.  It's a fair assumption that Clinton would have still won Florida had there been a fair election.  But you can't know by what margin she would have won.  Seating the delegates using the disputed vote total is just as "undemocratic" as throwing out the vote totals completely.

The same logic applies to Michigan, with the added wrinkle that his name wasn't even on the ballot there.  I didn't spend time finding the exact passage in the OSCE handbook, but I'm sure having more than one candidate on the ballot is important for credible elections.

The fact of the matter is, both the FL and MI votes did not meet any accepted standards for fair elections.  It is extremely unfortunate that this happened.  Like you said before, both candidates share the blame.  But to seat the delegates using the disputed election tallies is just as undemocratic as throwing out the result completely.  If anything it is worse, as I believe a tainted election is worse than no election at all.


"We have said since Iowa that this is a race for delegates."
-Howard Wolfson
by belicheat on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:10:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (none / 0)

95 percent of this is your opinion...you're entitled to it, but you know what they say about opinions...Good luck with that.


I'm riding the Low Road Express. Join me at www.lowroadexpress.com
by LtWorf on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:12:52 AM EST

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (1.66 / 6)

"Technical violations" of the rules are not matters of opinion.  They are matters of fact.  The existence of three subsequent challenges to the initial ruling is a matter of fact, not opinion.  

Towards the end, I opine a little bit but this is mostly an objective account of the actual rules and how they're procedures are set up.  They are cited to repeatedly.  If you disagree with a specific factual point, please call it to my attention.  

Otherwise, you may be having a difficult time distinguishing between fact and opinion, and if that is the case, I will refrain from hurling insults.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:30:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (2.00 / 3)

The problem is, you mix a fairly cogent dissection of the rules with a hefty bit of opinion.

It would be helpful if everyone were clearer about what the rules state, how they could work, where they are open to interpretation, where they are not, and so on. A diary clarifying all that would be useful to everyone.

But your diary only partially does that.

With your points 6, 8, 9, 10, you get into the realm of interpretation, speculation, and opinion. Nothing wrong with that. But it changes your post from an informative one to an argumentative one in which you try to set up a false link between the information provided and the validity of your argument.


by vadasz on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:04:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (2.00 / 3)

Good comment and well noted.

For the record though, I don't think I'm setting up a "false link" or undue posture of validity by editorializing towards the end.  I think it's pretty clear where the discourse transitions from a dense and objective expose on the rules and procedures and into a more open/general discussion of the broader and inherently more subjective interrelated issues.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:30:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (2.00 / 0)

You're right, it does become pretty clear. Again, no problem there.

But at the top of the diary, you sell it as, "a straightforward Question & Answer approach."

What I mean to say is that it's admirable to try and get people talking about HOW the rules actually do work, might work, could work.

But when you veer from that into an opinion piece, you're undercutting your initial intention. And what you're going to end up with is people running to their corners, defending the candidates of their choice, and not talking rules.


by vadasz on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:41:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (2.00 / 1)

It does use the Q&A approach throughout for simplicity of reading.  

I think you may be misreading my intent.  This was not purported to be a writing purged of editorialism.  I am a proud Hillary supporter.  I'm not trying to cover that up.  

Your perspective is worthwhile; thank you for sharing.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:37:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your arguments have been fairly (none / 0)

well dismantled in my post below. I've already provided this information to you in response to an earlier comment in another diary, so I've hide-rated your "tip jar" for proliferating purposefully misleading information and/or lies.


by bookish on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:01:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your arguments have been fairly (none / 0)

I think that's called hide-rating a contributor simply because you disagree with their perspective.  Check out the rules for this site.  Thanks.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:38:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No. I disagree. (none / 0)

You claim to be stating fact after I've provided evidence that your facts are not true. If you stated that it was your opinion that the sanctions were optional, I would have let it go. But you present it as fact when the rules set forth by the DNC state unequivocally otherwise.

As I stated, I've provided you this information elsewhere, but you chose to ignore because it didn't suit your argument. That's called lying, and in a free exchange of ideas, there ought to be a standard of honesty in the discussion.


by bookish on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:44:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No. I disagree. (none / 0)

I have well over a hundred responses here and yours no more or less important than any other.  Be patient.  

Note that reasonable minds can differ on what's "true."  Clearly we don't hold the same view.  That's no excuse to violate the site guidelines and engage in an adolescent spree of troll-rating.  

Please read the site rules.  You're credibility is waning.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:48:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (2.00 / 1)

''Florida and Michigan have GOP-dominated legisilatures and one of the explicit goals of the move was to rattle our nomination process.''

Last I checked, Jennifer Granholm, governor of Michigan and ardent Hillary supporter, is a democrat.

Please, notice the title.  GOVERNOR. Ya know what that means?  She had veto power over that bill to move the Michigan primary.  Unless, the Michigan GOP had enough votes to override the veto this falls squarely on her head.


I'm riding the Low Road Express. Join me at www.lowroadexpress.com
by LtWorf on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:16:31 AM EST

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (2.00 / 2)


Why were MI/FL the only states penalized?
Wisdom Is The Reward For Listening Over A Lifetime
by gunner on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:29:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (2.00 / 1)

Why?  Having small states go first allows voters to meet candidates rather than spend much of their time on television.  There's something profoundly democratic about watching a candidate shivering in the cold New Hampshire snow only to shake hands from a voter.  It's also the only shot a lesser-known, underfinanced candidate, i.e., Chris Dodd, Mike Huckabee, has a chance to prove themselves.  Those candidates can't afford to get on television in order to increase their name recognition.

Also, Florida and Michigan did not ask for a waiver when they broke DNC rules; the other jurisdictions did.


by Brad G on Tue May 06, 2008 at 12:49:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (none / 0)

Actually they did ask for a waiver, and were denied, and were told in no uncertain terms that if they went ahead with their elections as planned their delegates would be stripped.

But they clearly thought they could do as they pleased and the rules would be bent in their favor later.


John McCain
by Mandoliniment on Tue May 06, 2008 at 05:48:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (2.00 / 3)

I wrote:

"Florida and Michigan have GOP-dominated legisilatures and one of the explicit goals of the move was to rattle our nomination process."

And you countered that:

"Last I checked, Jennifer Granholm, governor of Michigan and ardent Hillary supporter, is a democrat."

The governor is an executive, not a legislator.  At any rate, this shows no culpability on the part of Michigan voters.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:33:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (none / 0)

But it begs the question if she were so against it, why did she not veto the bill? THAT is a duty of a chief executive in any government body be it mayoral, gubernatorial or presidential.  So ANSWER the question.


I'm riding the Low Road Express. Join me at www.lowroadexpress.com
by LtWorf on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:32:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

There are lots of crickets in this diary. n/t (none / 0)


by bookish on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:58:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (none / 0)

The issue here isn't about an ego-war between the party and state politicians.  It's about the enfranchisement of 2.5 million voters.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:39:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

i agree with your statement of fact... (2.00 / 1)

the republican legislature in florida did do this, and did understand that it would "rattle our nomination process."

but you seem to think that hillary and florida's democratic leadership had nothing to do with it.  in my own conversation with hillary last year (or so), she mentioned that she was pushing to have florida move up in the primary season when she was trying to get my support.  she clearly believed that florida's voting early would help her.

and the florida party leadership agreed with her (granted, most of them were already supporting hillary).  florida moving up was, initially, a bi-partisan thing.  leaders in both parties believed it helped their favorite candidate AND their party.  let's not try to re-write history here and pretend that florida's early primary was forced upon florida's democrats against their objections.  we thought we'd win this thing.  and we thought we had the firepower (in the democratic party) to pull it off.

we were wrong.

the important thing is that florida's democratic voters knew that we were voting without a delegation coming out of our votes.  we understood that.  and we voted anyway...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:54:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i agree with your statement of fact... (none / 0)

"she mentioned that she was pushing to have florida move up in the primary season when she was trying to get my support"

Wanting to move the primary up in he calendar is not the same as wanting to move it to a date prior to Feb. 5.  Florida had always voted after that date.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:41:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: i agree with your statement of fact... (none / 0)

Thanks for this...the majority of Florida congressmen/women, when commenting on this on TV, have said that it was a total Republican decision which was forced on them because the Republicans control the FL legislature.  Only one Dem congressman said that was not the case, the the Democrats in the legislature did NOT protest and went along with it, thinking they would be seated at a future date and not be punished.


by mariannie on Wed May 07, 2008 at 03:17:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rules Lesson: Florida and Michigan (2.00 / 1)

No, but you argued that Democrats had no culpability in your piece. This is refuting that claim, not attacking the voters.


by Falsehood on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:36:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And then you have video evidence (2.00 / 2)

Senator Steven Geller (D) openly mocking the DNC while voting to pass the bill that moved up the primary. But it was the nasty ol' GOP that made them do it...right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r25wUeMAw dE


by bookish on Tue May 06, 2008 at 02:50:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And then you have video evidence (none / 0)

I love how people keep citing this as 'evidence' that Florida Dems were complicit in moving this along. Have you no understanding of context? He was very obviously mocking the entire process, and at the end said "Oh, we really really want this", in full obvious sarcasm.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Tue May 06, 2008 at 03:53:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your interpretation is ridiculous (2.00 / 0)

He's clearly putting forth a motion that he hoped would insulate the state Dems from culpability in the legislation that moved the primary all the while laughing and joking with the Republican leader. Then he voted for the legislation that you say he was against.

If you're reading something else into this, then you, as a Clinton supporter, have been the one drinking Kool-Aid.

If you can't bring honesty to the discussion, then I don't care to hear what you have to say.


by bookish on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:09:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Your interpretation is ridiculous (none / 0)

My interpretation is pretty obviously what was meant there. What you're arguing relies on something that supposedly happens off-camera, and your interpretation of those magical off-camera events.

You're the one ignoring honesty here, let's be clear. I'm a Clinton supporter, but not of the Kool-Aid kind. If you have to resort to these accusations, then yeah, we probably don't have much to say to each other since you not only refuse to acknowledge that this could be an interpretation, call my interpretation ridiculous, and then go on to say I've been 'drinking Kool-Aid'. Great.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:17:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Everything's on the video. (none / 0)

There's nothing more to say.


by bookish on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:19:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Everything's on the video. (none / 0)

Exactly.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:20:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Let me guess (none / 0)

You support Senator Clinton?


_____________
changiness
by lizardbox on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:28:50 AM EST

as a florida voter... (1.00 / 1)

please stop embarrassing democrats in florida.  really, what is your purpose?  is hillary so important to you that turning florida red for decades is your only option?

unlike you seem to assume, florida democrats are not stupid.  we knew that our presidential preference primary was just a beauty contest and wouldn't lead to delegates.  yet we voted, in record numbers.  OUR VOTES COUNTED.

stop trying to destroy the future of florida's democrats with your inferences that we are stupid, didn't know what we were doing and need the help of you outsiders in some vanity play.

leave florida out of it.  we've been embarrassed enough, and each reinforcement of the republicans' "democrats continue to embarrass florida voters, you can't trust them" meme loses us seats and attractive candidates.  given the frequency of this, i can only assume that's your purpose.  democrats damn florida.  just because.

florida should not be the democrat's whipping boy if they actually want to win in this state (in some year, far far away)...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:32:22 AM EST

Re: as a florida voter... (2.00 / 1)

You don't speak for your state or for the hundreds of thousands of voters who voted against the candidate you support.  

"OUR VOTES COUNTED."

So now you submit that Florida's votes counted?  Honestly, that is so out of touch with the current state of this issue, I can't even dignify it with a response.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:36:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

we already understand that you ignore florida... (2.00 / 1)

voters.  your supreme arrogance shows.  which is why your assumptions are seriously flawed.  (btw, you've created a tautology -- you've attempted to speak for florida's voters, told a florida voter he doesn't speak for florida's voters, but continues to assume that you do.  that's more than just hypocritical.  it's logically flawed.)

unlike you, i work with campaigns in florida, and talk to candidates frequently.  as i wrote about before easter, florida's congressional candidates hear about how bad florida is whenever they try to raise money outside the state.  you are perpetuating that problem FOR NO GOOD REASON.  yes, i'm sure that you think that fairness requires that florida be embarrassed and florida's democrats be alienated.

and i understand your difficulty dealing with this reality.  your theoretical understanding of florida and the voter's psychology here is not only due to the distance between you and florida, but your absolute need to force fit the state into your argument.  florida's democrats be damned!

so much for winning...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:40:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hmmm (none / 0)

I don't claim to speak for Florida or Florida voters.  It is a fact that the states' are arguing their superdelegates are beyond the 2008 DSR's because of the DNC charter.  Stating that fact is something any journalist could or should do.  Don't pretend I am claiming to be Florida's spokesperson.  

If you disagree with what I write in the future, please come equipped with a more precise grasp of what I have said rather than approximating it to some caricature at which you would like to throw tomatos.  Thank you.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 04:45:16 PM EST
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