Historic Debate? No, Let Him Eat His Waffles

This diary is designed to contemplate the implications that Barack Obama's perceived inability to deal with adversity may have on both his decision to engage Clinton's Lincoln-Douglas style debate challenge and his dubious capacity to serve as President of the United States.

I'll start with one of the most glaring recent examples.  Last week, at the Glider Diner in Scranton, Pennsylvania, Barack Obama spazzed out on a woman who asked him a question regarding Jimmy Carter's meeting with Hamas.  As if the GOP and even Hillary Clinton didn't have enough tailor-made-for-TV unbelievable Obama gaffes, at a publicity breakfast, he gave them another remarkable treasure.  

"Why is it that I can't just eat my waffle!" he surprised onlookers, "Just let me eat my waffle right now."  

Note, the anchor incorrectly refers to the diner as "Glider's Diner" but it is most certainly the "Glider Diner."  I have been there.  

This is by no means the first time Obama has balked in the face of adversity.  Not only did he grow more obvious in his annoyance with questions and a less than kowtowing press in the final sprint of the Pennsylvania primary, but his indignant evasion climaxed shamefully in the now unforgettable Philadelphia debate.  

Speaking Saturday in South Bend, Indiana, Hillary Clinton sums up the debate experience, touching on factors ranging from his elusiveness and chronic complaining to his naive misunderstanding of the presidential role's fundamental challenges.  

"You know, after the last debate in Philadelphia, Senator Obama's supporters complained a little bit about the tough questions. And you know, tough questions in the debate are nothing compared to the tough questions you get asked when you're president and you have to answer them to make tough decisions," she said.

"So here's my proposal: I'm offering Senator Obama the chance to debate me one-on-one, no moderators. Just the two of us, going for 90 minutes, asking and answering questions. We'll set whatever rules seem fair."

Senator Clinton's strategy is brilliant.  She knows Obama is afraid to debate her because without a teleprompter and a prepared speech, his renowned eloquence is disarmed and exposed as a charade.  He can play President on TV, but can he do the job?  

Rather than falling prey to the typical appearance of the "loser" begging for more debates, Hillary has raised the stakes by issuing a historic challenge.  This clever distinction allows her to make headlines and excite the electorate who would probably be very curious to see how this style of debate would pan out.  Not only will a refusal from Obama affirm his increasing aura of hiding from problems (a theme also well noted by Pennsylvanians when he fled before the results returned) but it will also disappoint anyone excited to see this historic moment.  There will be no one to blame but Obama.

Since the glory days of the Potomac Primaries, Barack Obama was hastily cast as the presumptive nominee of the party.  As one of his partisan supporters Senator Patrick Leahy told the nation a short time afterwards, his nomination was a "foregone conclusion."  With a string of 11 wins, Obama and his dedicated supporters viewed the nomination as something already earned, something in the bag.  Working towards a great goal can be an inspiring journey but working so hard to maintain something you already believe is yours is a drain.  It's boring because at the end of the day, all you have to show for your effort is something you (believed you) already had. This sense of entitlement is part of the reason Obama has been so exasperated of late.  But unfortunately for him, much like the rigors of a complex campaign, the executive job is neither a walk in the park nor is it a constant dash of elevation and excitement.  Hence, it is better suited to the steady candidate who revels in seemingly mundane microscopic policy details rather than the one who functions properly only when inspired by endless praise and thrill.  

This ennui and impatience of Barack Obama coagulated into frustration during Pennsylvania's primary and showed him disinterested in finishing the boring task of what he had previously considered a formality: securing the nomination.  This has produced a cycle where his negative and plaintive public image undermines his core campaign rationale, the romanticized view of a new and harmonious Washington-as-Utopia with him playing the honorable White House Superman.  As his strongest attribute corrodes, it invites more criticism, prompting more public frustration and further undercuts the vague promises of civility and political health, repeating the cycle ad nauseum.  His zombie-like concession speech on April 22 confirmed that the magic was gone.  

This leads us to today.  Obama's an intelligent man and is sufficiently self-aware to realize that only a month after his self-styled coronation as nominee, he has failed to deliver the kind of indefatigable oratory brilliance that would be necessary to keep his cinematic appeal afloat.  Hence, the idea of a no-holds-barred debate with Hillary Clinton is an extreme pressure.  He would in essence have to start from scratch, reweaving the Wizard's curtain that peeled away in Pennsylvania.  His best bet is to accept the debate and perform brilliantly.  No question about it.  It would show he had faith in himself and confidence in his skills to confront adversity.  

If he backs out, the historic and headlines-making challenge of Hillary Clinton will draw immense attention to yet another failure to engage challenges.  It will affirm the "wimp" and "coward" notions that threaten to consume his public image.  Superdelegates and voters will take notice that he's playing into a dangerous stereotype.

To Barack Obama's terrible surprise and chagrin, Hillary Clinton isn't simply going to vanish overnight just because it would make his life convenient.  More and more, she is the fighter, the pragmatist, the modern day Athena.  If he can't engage Hillary Clinton, then I have serious doubts about his ability to confront the GOP and then as president, to confront our nation's problems.

So which is it: the debate or the waffles?


Poll
Barack will pick:
The Historic Debate
The Waffles
Leave him alone! OMG ur so mean.

Votes: 16
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Block Quotes? (2.00 / 4)

I'm pretty new here.  Any tips on getting block quotes to work would be appreciated.  :-)

Thanks.


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:59:40 AM EST

LMAO, is that the notorious ebay waffle?? (2.00 / 2)

To do a blockquote, make sure your diary is on auto format or html format, and use these tags:

<blockquote>insert text here</blockquote>


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:05:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes! (2.00 / 4)

The reason it was so famous was because it was the waffle from the local Waffle Scandal.

People in this part of the state were very surprised with his outburst to the questioner.  I didn't see too much of it on national news though.  Just that the waffle was sold on ebay.  

Thank you for the block quote help.


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:08:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I remember a cartoon (2.00 / 2)

during Bush I v. Clinton....it was fresh off the heels of Bush I "success" during the first gulf war...Bush was serving "Iraq Cakes" in a diner in mid-town America, and all the traffic, people and cars were over at "Slick Willie's Waffle House" across the street!!


by 4justice on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:11:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I remember a cartoon (2.00 / 1)

Iraq cakes!!! That is nuts.  Thanks for the recap.  I never saw that commercial.  (I was real young then).  :-)


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:24:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama has already won. (1.33 / 3)

Get on board or get our of the way.  You aren't helping.


by dystopianfuturetoday on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:29:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama has already won. (2.00 / 1)

With all due respect, you may not have noticed but we're still embroiled in a primary.  

The way you use the word "over" makes it sound more like a state of mind (yours) than reality.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:46:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary can't win the nom, much less the election. (2.00 / 1)

She is wasting valuable time.  I know you are a fan, but at some point you need to embrace reality.


by dystopianfuturetoday on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:10:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary can't win the nom, much less the elect (2.00 / 1)

It will be over when Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton have enough delegates.  Both of them will need superdelegates to win.

If Clinton has the momentum coming out of the last contests, the popular vote locked up, and depending on how MI and FL enter the equation, it is entirely possible that HRC will be the nominee.

Right now, Barack Obama's "inevitability" hinges on ignoring the votes of two major battleground states.

I'm sorry, it's not over, as much as you would like for it to be.


No candidacy is more important than the right to vote.
by hornplayer on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:37:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's over dude. Stop deluding yourself. (2.00 / 0)

You sound very uninformed when you peddle that MI and FL BS.  Neither state had a legitimate primary.  Do you honestly think we should count a state that only had Hillary on the ballot?  If you have any capacity for critical thought, I suggest you engage it pronto.

Sorry to be blunt, but we don't have time for ego games here, we have an election to win.  Just consider this tough love from a fellow musician.

Do you play French Horn, or another variety?


by dystopianfuturetoday on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:51:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"Horn player" = French Horn? (2.00 / 1)

That is funny!


by miker2008 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:57:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Horn is short for French Horn. (none / 0)


by dystopianfuturetoday on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:02:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's over dude. Stop deluding yourself. (2.00 / 1)

Actually, Dodd and Kucinich were also on the ballot. Edwards, Biden and Obama pulled their names to pander to New Hampshire, not because of any DNC rules.

from Markos Moulitsas, of DKos:

What's more, Clinton was the only top-tier candidate to refuse the ultimate Iowa and New Hampshire pander by removing her name from the Michigan ballot. That makes her essentially the de facto winner since Edwards and Obama, caving to the cry babies in Iowa and New Hampshire, took their name off Michigan's ballot. Sure, the DNC has stripped Michigan of its delegates, but that won't last through the convention. The last thing Democrats can afford is to alienate swing states like Michigan and Florida by refusing to seat their delegates.

So while Obama and Edwards kneecap their chances of winning, Clinton is single-mindedly focused on the goal.


"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:44:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's over dude. Stop deluding yourself. (2.00 / 1)

Actually, someone who pretends the MI/FL issue is resolved is more out of touch with reality than someone who acknowledged the issue still lingers.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:25:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Again, stop deluding yourself. (none / 0)


by dystopianfuturetoday on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:40:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's over dude. Stop deluding yourself. (none / 0)

MI and FL are the only two states I've ever lived in.  Believe me I'm informed on the issue, and the biggest argument I have is that to insult MI and FL Democrats by saying they don't matter will depress their turnout in the fall.

You're deluding yourself if you think Obama has this thing sewn up.  His chances are good, yes--4 out of 5 good--but it isn't settled and it isn't over.  "The math," that the Obama supporters go around muttering like zombies (the maaaath!  the MAAAAAATH!) is dependent on superdelegates rubber stamping a tiny pledged delegate lead that isn't necessarily indicative of the will of the people.

But if you think this thing is over, then please, stop campaigning for the nomination!


No candidacy is more important than the right to vote.
by hornplayer on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:40:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's over dude. Stop deluding yourself. (none / 0)

oh yeah, my primary instrument is French horn, though as a music major I play nearly everything to some extent


No candidacy is more important than the right to vote.
by hornplayer on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 03:41:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nice TR abuse Teresa. (2.00 / 0)


by dystopianfuturetoday on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:54:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

stop the personal attacks (2.00 / 1)


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 08:48:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Criticism = Personal Attacks! (none / 0)

Got it.  Thanks Teresa.


by dystopianfuturetoday on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 01:49:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Historic Debate? No, Let Him Eat His Waffles (none / 0)

That was a really funny post .

Imagine running an ad called " Waffles ".

lol.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:14:56 AM EST

Re: Historic Debate? No, Let Him Eat His Waffles (none / 0)

Oh that would be priceless!

I still laugh when I see the ad "Pennsylvania."  It was so perfect.  Especially that very sensitive lady in the middle who said,

"For me... faith is... an uplifting thing!  It's not about being bitter!"


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:18:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Historic Debate? No, Let Him Eat His Waffles (none / 0)

The 3 ads she has ran that I absolutely loved are ,

1) Children : Its 3am

2) Kitchen : Harry Truman  

3) True : Response to Obama in Texas . Barack Obama said he had the Judgement but he didn't hold one hearing on Afganistan

Her closing ads have been genius , I read it was Mark Penn that suggested the Kitchen ad too.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:30:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Historic Debate? No, Let Him Eat His Waffles (none / 0)

Hmmm I don't know who made any of the ads.  It seems Geoff Garin is 50000X better than Mark Penn.  Hillary has been so radiant recently.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:25:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes i've noticed that too. He sent (none / 0)

out letters asking ordinary people for input on how to improve the campaign.   That was a nice touch.


by miker2008 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:58:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Merge it with the 3a.m. ad. (none / 0)

Cue the ominous music, let the red phone ring about 10 times, then cut to Obama in wearing a bib saying "I don't want to answer the phone right now, I'm trying to eat my waffles.".


by georgiapeach on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:46:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Historic Debate? No, Let Him Eat His Waffles (2.00 / 1)

Obama cannot debate me; he is a wimp! Obama has lost his momentum! He will crumble under the GOP attack! I have no negatives! My debate proposal wasn't a setup for soundbytes! I've never shirked a debate in my life!

This is what I got out of your post there. Seriously, a lot of rhetoric, and it doesn't really contribute to anything. Obama is the frontrunner; he's got no reason to accept this debate. Clinton's broke; the only way she can get her face and message out is through free methods such as this one. You better believe if roles were reversed, there'd be no way she'd agree to this debate. See her senate campaign in 2006.

Besides, McCain wouldn't, either. Obama'd school him up one side and down the other in a debate- and McCain and Obama will only have a maximum or two or three debates, not twenty-two, I assure you.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:16:37 AM EST

Re: Historic Debate? No, Let Him Eat His Waffles (2.00 / 0)

Again, I feel I must point out that is a photoshop of "Baghdad Bob", lest any overzealous rating-abuser miss the snark there and think otherwise.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:17:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Historic Debate? No, Let Him Eat His Waffles (none / 0)

It is increasngly hilarious how Clinton supporter's conveniently ignore the narrative of her 2006 Senate campaign-- especially when she dodged debates with both her primary and general election opponents.


by Socraticsilence on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:52:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

In other threads Senator Obama's (none / 0)

supporters are making a good and valid point in asking folks to drop the reference to the infamous 'drink'.

It is time for Senator Obama's supporters to also drop the mentioning 'hilarious' at the drop of the hat while mentioning Hillary Clinton. We all get the snide remark and it is getting old and tiresome.
 


by louisprandtl on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:58:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Historic Debate? No, Let Him Eat His Waffles (2.00 / 1)

It's irrelevant.  Her challengers were nonentities.  

Hillary is not in that position right now.  She's tied for front-runner status in the Democratic presidential nomination.    


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:33:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Historic Debate? No, Let Him Eat His Waffles (none / 0)

Ahhh... Rick Lazio was a nonentity. Got it.

Translation- okay for her, not for Obama.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:34:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Historic Debate? No, Let Him Eat His Waffles (2.00 / 1)

The diary is about Barack Obama's inability to confront adversity and extending this principle for us to predict whether he will accept the debate.  He probably will not and he will further the coward meme that has been circulating of late.  

I regret that you find my writing doesn't "really contribute to anything" but that is your opinion and you're entitled to state it.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 04:30:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's rather about (none / 0)

Barack Obama unwillingness to turn this into a circus. It's fine for Hillary, because she's got nothing to lose, but Obama does.


by Fairy Tale on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:21:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Historic Debate? No, Let Him Eat His Waffles (none / 0)

Truly, who is it benefiting? Who's going to have a better view of Senator Clinton from a hit piece like this? It only serves to further the rift between us.

I could write a piece on how horrible Senator Clinton was. Even if it was all true, I have a strong suspicion her supporters would rally around her here, regardless, and become even more hostile towards Obama supporters.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:37:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Historic Debate? No, Let Him Eat His Waffles (2.00 / 1)

The prime focus of this diary was not to enumerate reasons why readers should have a "better view of Senator Clinton."

It's an opinion piece that stresses the dangers of his timid evasion and considers that trait in light of how it may effect his decision to debate.  

And you say... that I just shouldn't have written anything at all, yes?

I mean, Heaven forbid we actually pay attention to the fatal flaws in the man who may be championing our Party's ticket in the fall.

I wish I had been this vocal about John Kerry.


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:30:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

bwack bwwwaaaaaaaaaaaahck (2.00 / 1)

he's chicken.  I can assure you that you are in no position to say what Barry will do in the future.  I am sure you are right though that he will have as few debates as possible.  I would too if I was as weak on policy and poise.


For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
by TeresaInPa on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:53:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: bwack bwwwaaaaaaaaaaaahck (none / 0)

Heh.

Parse it however you please; I'm sure you'll say, as Obama gets the nomination, Sniff if there was just one more debate!

It's fun to watch, however, how low you have sunk to be clucking at Barack Obama. You've devolved back to grade school. Congratulations.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:36:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

In the not so distant past, (2.00 / 1)

Obama's supporters were singing his praises for continuing the boycott of FOX, while disparaging Clinton supporters and surrogates for truthfully saying that FOX had actually been more "fair and balanced" toward both of our candidates than the other news outlets. By this time next week, they may very will be trying to justify Obama's change of heart about another debate.


by georgiapeach on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:54:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Historic Debate? No, Let Him Eat His Waffles (2.00 / 1)

You folks really have been reduced to Baghdad Bob level.  "We are slaughtering them in the streets!  We are slaughtering them in the countryside!  They are cowards!"  Enjoy it.  Enjoy wasting tens of millions in Democratic donations on Hillary's and her supporters' egos.


I like baked beans.
by SpideyDem on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 06:09:49 AM EST

Re: Historic Debate? No, Let Him Eat His Waffles (none / 0)

So you know before you stick on this Waffle theme.  In many places saying "let him eat his waffles" is like saying "let him eat his watermellon" or fried-chicken... I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but be aware.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:06:14 AM EST

Re: Historic Debate? No, Let Him Eat His Waffles (2.00 / 1)

What a bunch of crap. Since when does eating waffles equate to watermelon?
Where exactly are these "many places" you speak of?
"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:48:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Historic Debate? No, Let Him Eat His Waffles (none / 0)

In east texas, where I grew up, a comments about black folks eating Waffles with Chicken were fairly common.


Bring Back MyDD - Just say No to Rec'ing Candidate Diaries.
by CardBoard on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:59:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Historic Debate? No, Let Him Eat His Waffles (2.00 / 1)

So many places becomes one place.
Is there something racist about eating waffles and fried chicken? Or is it just racist to talk about it?
"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 10:22:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hmmm (none / 0)

I agree that the waffles comment is not racist.  But in light of some of the more vicious diaries calling everything sexism, it's a fair argument.


by ProgressiveDL on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:16:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmmm (2.00 / 1)

Obivously, I must state here for the record, that the title in the diary refers to the incident where Barack Obama snapped at a reporter who asked him a question at a publicity breakfast.

The existence of many other voices crying "sexism" (a charge I rarely make) repeatedly does nothing to legitimize the idea that my diary's title is racist.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:34:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am TIRED of debates (none / 0)

We have had 21 of them.  We don't need another one.


by puma on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:17:58 AM EST

Re: I am TIRED of debates (2.00 / 1)

yeah, all those policy discussions. they make my head hurt. i want to bask in the worship of The One without all those annoying thoughts running through my head.


by campskunk on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 10:34:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am TIRED of debates (none / 0)

This is not meant as an attack on you, since I don't know anything about your personal beliefs.  Your comment just made me think about something.

I find it amazing how so many people decry the "uncritical worship" of Obama and then march into church every Sunday.


by ProgressiveDL on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:17:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am TIRED of debates (2.00 / 2)

Wow.

Your logic is that: Hillary supporters have a higher rate of church attendance and that ipso facto shows they are not critical thinkers.  Therefore, when they question Obama, they are being hypocrites.

I definitely don't agree.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:38:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am TIRED of debates (none / 0)

No, that's not what I am saying at all.  In fact, my comment was pretty tangential to the topic (which was probably a dumb idea to include in that case).

I am saying that many people (whether they support Clinton, McCain, Obama or no one) get all up in arms when someone or something is not looked at in a critical way and then these same people go out and do not look critically at religion.  

The comment was not meant as an attack on anyone, just a plea for some more critical thought on religion in general (which Obama ought to do as well).


by ProgressiveDL on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:29:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am TIRED of debates (none / 0)

"I am saying that many people (whether they support Clinton, McCain, Obama or no one) get all up in arms when someone or something is not looked at in a critical way and then these same people go out and do not look critically at religion."

This is where you're wrong.  I don't know what leads you to assume that anyone who attends church is a sheep who has never considered their spirituality in an objective context.  I don't attend church myself and I don't adhere to the tenets of any major world religion.  But I've learned my lesson about assuming that anyone who does is stupid or blind.  Many, though not all, churchgoers take the experience with a grain of salt and most have given their choice of religion and its meaning to them some serious thought over the course of their lifetime.

What you say about religious people is little more than a tired pejorative sociology lesson from the far left.  The far left has a disparaging social "truth" applicable to anyone that does not subscribe to its fashionable views.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:33:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Also (none / 0)

I wrote "Your logic is that: Hillary supporters have a higher rate of church attendance and that ipso facto shows they are not critical thinkers.  Therefore, when they question Obama, they are being hypocrites."

And you responded,

"I am saying that many people (whether they support Clinton, McCain, Obama or no one) get all up in arms when someone or something is not looked at in a critical way and then these same people go out and do not look critically at religion."

It seems to me both statements convey the exact same message.  Your message is still "People don't look critically at religion but they look critically at Barack Obama, therefore they are applying a double standard and are hypocrites."

I read you right the first time.


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:36:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Also (none / 0)

Yes, then I guess you did.  I wasn't aiming it only at Hillary supporters though.  That's the difference.  I wish people would be more critical about everything.  

Most of the people I know who are church-goers (friends and family) do not look very critically at it and it is frustrating.  I suppose I wish more people who do have problems with religion would say so.  


by ProgressiveDL on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 07:22:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Also (none / 0)

I guess it's a different set of experiences we have then.  When I was younger and presumed that the religiously devout were the dumb opium-leeches as they are caricatured in the far left, I would often be surprised and then embarrassed to discover I had misjudged so many genuinely thoughtful people who had very compelling reasons for espousing religion, to varying degrees.


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 11:48:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Also (none / 0)

Yeah, I think that is probably true.  I guess I am only talking about the ones who never really think about why they are religious or just blindly choose the religion of their parents without ever thinking about it.  

I have lived in PA for the last year after being in MA for 10 years, so it's been a bit of a shock to the system.  And for disclosure's sake, I was raised Catholic, so that probably says a lot about me.  


by ProgressiveDL on Mon Apr 28, 2008 at 08:45:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am TIRED of debates (none / 0)

And I make no bones about the fact that I'm an avowed atheist who rejects all forms of organized religion.  And I am not claiming to be objective, just pointing out an interesting observation.


by ProgressiveDL on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 03:30:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am TIRED of debates (none / 0)

he isnt the messiah? someone forget to tell his worshippers.

sorry wont be supporting him in november.

he is filth.

Yeah, you gave that mojo. Forgive us if we think you're only in this for Rush Limbaugh, at most. A great reflection on your candidate.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:11:32 PM EST
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Re: I am TIRED of debates (none / 0)

You know, there's this thing called a "remote" that changes the channels on your TV. You COULD try using it if you don't want to see another debate. There are lots of other things to watch.

I, on the other hand, would LOVE to see a debate where the questions are NOT asked by the moderators. I'm thinking it would be very interesting.


by splashy on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 05:33:21 PM EST
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Re: Historic Debate? No, Let Him Eat His Waffles (2.00 / 1)

I like the idea, both the candidates talking about their positions on the issues. No stupid lapel pin questions.
I don't think Obama will do it, as he isn't very good at off the cuff remarks, and as he's leading now, going into the final states, he cannot afford the negative press.
"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 09:51:19 AM EST

Re: Historic Debate? No, Let Him Eat His Waffles (2.00 / 1)

I don't think he will either.

The clever part of Hillary's strategy is that she's moved beyond the "she wants more debates/he says no theme."  By issuing a historic challenge she makes this more newsworthy and makes his likely refusal all the more devastating.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 27, 2008 at 02:39:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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