2 + 2 = 5? No. Stop the Obama Spin.

This diary is dedicated to everyone here who is disgusted with the repetition of twisted spinning pseudo-facts like:

"Hillary can't win."

"It's the math, stupid!"

"He has the nomination locked up."

"He's winning everything."

"She lost her 20% lead."

Enough of the lies.  We have our own sound-bytes and it's time to use them.  

One of the GOP's greatest strengths, in terms of sales-pitch marketing, has been its ability to subsume powerful and resonating themes into short and effective punchlines.  Each one sends the self-styled academic far-left wing of the Democratic party into a dialectic frenzy.  First comes the list of 1,000,001 reasons the GOP is wrong (mind you, the GOP is almost always wrong, but it shouldn't take a novel's worth of "high minded" platitudes to explain why).  Next comes the usual give-and-take lovefest of faux intellectual strutting and high fives.  Finally, the enlightened ones dictate with painstaking and painfully longwinded detail why everyone else's perception of the truth is actually quite "incorrect," from whatever ad hoc perspective du jour their chosen result requires them to adopt.  As many of us already know, logicians have outlined theorems showing how one can "prove" that 2 + 2 = 5.  Bring the political equivalent to the fore, and what may be the GOP's response?  "Democrats can't do basic arithmetic."  Fitting.

That in mind, in the wake of the decisive Pennsylvania primary we have some spectacular facts on our side.

1. *More people voted for Hillary.*

Note that it's presumed, as it should be, that every state counts.  It's not incument on us to argue the self-evident and wholly intuitive notion that a comprehensive American vote tally includes Michigan and Florida.  Why wouldn't it?

Rather, it is incumbent on Obama proponents to explain why, contrary to democratic instinct, a partisan credentials committee has discretion to disenfranchise Michigan and Florida (again!) to help Obama because their (GOP) legislatures scheduled the primaries on a different day of the month than the party would have liked.  Further, let Obama's proponents explain the benefit of augmenting the popular vote tally with magic numbers derived from statistical fairy tales about how caucus states may or may not have voted had they held primaries instead of caucuses (as if they didn't already unfairly skew the race towards Obama to begin with!).  

End result:

Hillary supporters note "she got more votes."

Obama camp responds, "2 + 2 = 5."

Win = Hillary.

2. *The popular vote matters more than pledged delegates.*

This should need no elaboration.  Although a diary was recently front paged on Dailykos to arm Obama supporters with the sleights of mind necessary to convince the media that people's votes don't matter, not only was it flawed in its scope (by failing to explain how "pledged delegates" is a more convincing indicator of people's will) but its convoluted pseudo-intellectual narrative rendered it the exact type of technocratic attack on basic universal truths that has come to caricature the far-left.  Fortunately, as many polls have indicated recently, the public and superdelegates are not digesting this reasoning, let alone swallowing it.

Hillary side, "The one who gets the most votes should win."

Obama camp, "2 + 2 = 5."

Winner = Hillary.

3. *Obama is the big risk.*  

The superdelegates' unbridled discretion to pick the nominee of their conscience was instilled into the selection system to prevent a rerun of 1972.  Hence electability is a major concern.  Superdelegates will not want egg on their faces in November for having sanctioned the nominee who is probably the only nominee capable of losing this tailor-made-for-Democrats general election.

Demographics are reality.  Barack Obama is disfavored by women, the largest gender demographic.  He is substantially disfavored by the white, Latino, Asian, and Jewish voters comprising nearly 90% of the country.  His ability to appeal to centrist voters, even in the Democratic party, appears to be highly compromised.

Barack Obama puts the entire rock-solid-Democrat Northeast into play as a battleground, fails to be competitive in Ohio and Florida, and offers nothing in exchange except for a bigger albeit meaningless Democratic margin of victory in the upper midwest and Pacific coast, and an equally meaningless GOP margin abatement in the deep red south and Great Plains.  

His national strengths are conentrated in areas that don't help the Democratic party in the Electoral College.  We can win Illinois by 30% (instead of 15%) and lose Alabama by only 15% (instead of 20%) and still lose the electoral map by deadful figures.  We can't risk New Jersey, Pennsylvania, New York, New Hampshire, and Massachusetts, forfeit Ohio, Florida, West Virginia, Missouri, and Arkansas, and pretend that "having a better chance in Colorado and Virginia" makes up for it.  When you can't even appeal to the center in your own party, how can you appeal to the center at large?

The next time a convoluted explanation of the new Obama electoral map emerges, the response is simple.  He's a huge risk.  How a man who can't even appeal to half of his own party is expected to win the electorate at large is beyond me.  His "new" way of politics (ship that sunk in Pennsylvania, I guess), his "new" changes for government (what are they again, specifically?), his "new" electoral map (lose lots of blue states and try to win Virginia)... it's all hot air.  

"Big risk."

versus

"2 + 2 = 270"

Winner = Hillary

4.  *Obama peaked in February.*

Like an idolized child superstar, Obama rocketed to political celebrity early in the nominating process and experienced an incredible level of awe, support, and admiration.  A tabloid favorite, darling of Hollywood gossip circles, fad-frenzied  college students, academic high society, and all bandwagons of mass trend and fashion, Barack Obama engendered a hysteria so electrifying it has been described repeatedly as "fanatical" and "cultlike."  Like Leif Garret, Macaulay Culkin, Michael Jackson, Britney Spears, and others preceding him, Barack enjoyed the rush of limelight and responded with several rock-star quality public performances affirming his seemingly unstoppable charisma.

But we are all familiar with the axiom describing the human & media fascination with "building them up and tearing them down."  In the past few weeks, we passed that inevitable cusp.   As the glitter begins to fade and Barack Obama is confronted with an increasingly pervasive aura of adversity, the enthusiasm has vaporized and he appears unerringly fatigued, agitated, and unable to muster the inspirational tone that set his sky-high standards for eloquence only months previously.  It only gets worse then he's disarmed by the lack of a teleprompter and prepared speech.  Both in the last debate and in interviews in the latter part of Pennsylvania's primary campaign, Obama demonstrated a repeated inability to answer questions off the cuff, suffering through long pauses and uh...'s only to procure some of the most rudimentary and unconvincing responses I've heard on this campaign.  

His own visible dissatisfaction with his now tarnished public image only serves to accelerate his decline.  And, as any of the above washed up child superstars can attest, once the avalanche begins, there is no turning back.  What goes up must come down... and the bigger they are, the harder they fall...

I can't blame him for simply being human.  But when you're only distinguishing attribute in a nomination race is a charismatic allure that better qualifies you to play President on TV than to actually serve in the executive role, it's only a matter of time before the illusion of grandeur and bubbles of eloquent hot air are scrutinized and pierced.  By November, Obama will be looking less like the second coming and more like a political sideshow of "Where Are They Now?"  

So stop that spin dead in its tracks!  And without fuzzy math, decimal point arguments, and junk-academic illogic.  

The themes are simple:

Obama is a big risk.  He peaked in February.  Instead, the candidate with the most votes should win.  Hillary Clinton received the most votes.  

And...

2 + 2 = 4.

Thank you for reading.  


Poll
Caucuses are:
Suspicious
Inherently Biased
Anti-Democratic
Antiquated
Intimidating for ordinary Americans
Hard to attend for single mothers
Hard to attend for the elderly
Downright Weird

Votes: 10
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


she does not have the popular vote. (2.00 / 1)

he does.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:16:36 AM EST

Re: she does not have the popular vote. (none / 0)

What she has the "unpopular" vote?

Are Democrats the "unpopular" ones now?  She leads by ~900,000 among party democrats...


by DTaylor on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:20:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: she does not have the popular vote. (2.00 / 1)

Again, in order to say that, you have to cherrypick which states you want to count and which states you want to exclude.

Hillary Clinton has won the American popular vote.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:23:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

But they keep saying she does... (2.00 / 1)

Hillary has learned from the master.

by Dumbo on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:47:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But they keep saying she does... (2.00 / 1)

OMG

She can't win, Rezko has been fully investigated, Florida doesn't count
SShe can't win, Rezko has been fully investigated, Florida doesn't count
She can't win, Rezko has been fully investigated, Florida doesn't count
She can't win, Rezko has been fully investigated, Florida doesn't count
She can't win, Rezko has been fully investigated, Florida doesn't count
She can't win, Rezko has been fully investigated, Florida doesn't count
She can't win, Rezko has been fully investigated, Florida doesn't count
She can't win, Rezko has been fully investigated, Florida doesn't count

Who learned from Rove?????


by DTaylor on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:52:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

D, it depends. (2.00 / 1)

If you repeat something that's not true, it doesn't make it true.  But you have to start with something that's NOT TRUE.

Like, Hillary having the most votes, a preposterous statement that requires a big asterisk explanation that goes into the details of DNC decertification of Michigan, an issue that was settled last year and that Hillary acknowledged when she said the Michigan election doesn't count.

Of course, if you want to add any votes from any election, you might want to add the votes from my own household primary.  My two gay tomcats and I all voted Obama, and since we get 1 million votes each, that puts Obama ahead by 3.7 million votes.

What's that you say?  My primary doesn't count but Michigan does?  Well, if we're going to count any votes any silly way, without regard to party rules, what's the difference?  My tomcats are insulted.


by Dumbo on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:58:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: D, it depends. (2.00 / 1)

1. Michigan/Florida decertification is pending reinstatement.  It's a discretionary decertification, not compulsory.  It's not mandated the rules.  That means the "it's the rules!" meme is a repeated lie spun into fact-hood.  

2. Non political junkies don't know much about Florida and Michigan.  When you say, "Hillary wins the vote with every state" you don't need the asterisk.  It's the Obama supporters who would have the burden of explaining the counterintuitive notion that "Hillary won more votes, but Barack doesn't want to count FL/MI and if he gets enough friends on a committee, they're going to not count all the votes as a favor to him."

Face it, everybody knows that the "don't count all the votes" theme DOES NOT resonate well with the public.  Remember Florida?


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:14:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: D, it depends. (2.00 / 1)

Hillary: "I personally did not think it made any difference whether my name was on the [Michigan] ballot. You know, It's clear this election they are having is not going to count for anything."

Add that asterisk to the previous two asterisks.

I can add more reasons why not to count Michigan, but why bother?  You've heard them all, I've said them all.  And you can't be convinced because it doesn't benefit your candidate to be convinced.

I suggested before (half snark) that since Obama's name wasn't on the ballot, we take an average of the most recent polls and allocate delegates to Hillary and Obama based on that.  But that would give Obama MORE delegates out of Michigan (because he beats her in Michigan polls even today) than Hillary would, and that wouldn't be acceptable to Hillary.

The rules were decided and agreed to by both candidates before the election.  Hillary herself said the election didn't count.  She didn't try to argue for it counting when it mattered.


by Dumbo on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:31:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: D, it depends. (2.00 / 1)

I didn't agree.

I am a voter.

I will use my power as a voter against those who hold states of the union silent.

Obama is dead to me this cycle.  Next cycle if he doesn't screw up this one I will forgive and forget.

BUT IT BETTER NOT HAPPEN AGAIN


by DTaylor on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:35:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: D, it depends. (none / 0)

Again, I'm specifically talking about the raw vote tally in Michigan, not the assignment of its delegates which is another issue entirely.  

Creating fairy-tale distributions of delegates based on a poll is an abject insult to democracy, and you know it.

Excluding Michigan and Florida is a discretionary option of the party; it is neither manded by rules nor is it bound by any errant remarks any candidate or surrogate has made in the past.

I have always acknowledged the "Uncommitted" issue in Michigan makes it objectively more thorny than Florida.  Hillary isn't the one who removed his name from the ballot though.  He did that voluntarily to bolster his chances in Iowa, which he ultimately won.    

What is your real proposed solution for Florida and Michigan then?  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:51:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: D, it depends. (none / 0)

Can you show us your diaries / comments detailing your outrage at the disenfranchisement of FL and MI prior to Feb 5th?


by interestedbystander on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:47:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: D, it depends. (none / 0)

I just joined this site in the past few weeks.  

My outrage isn't what matters though.  The MI/FL issue hasn't been widely publicized yet outside of hardcore political junkies because it's indeterminate at this point.  If the GOP hammered the Dems on this point, we could easily shut them up by just seating the delegations and then they would have egg on their face.

If they're excluded, the "Barack Obama lost the election but he got his friends to disqualify two whole states" theme will be a household notion.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:55:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: D, it depends. (none / 0)

Why would the GOP hammer us on this point - they have done the exact same thing?


by interestedbystander on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 09:24:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"don't count all the votes" (none / 0)

As a resident of south Florida, (where a majority  of the democrats in Florida live, particularly in Palm Beach and Broward counties) I know of many who chose not to exercise that right to vote because they were well aware that our delegates would not be seated. In that respect, it is not a matter of "counting all of the votes" or being disenfranchised. No one was prohibited from casting a vote, some chose not to bother. And as I've said on this site many times before, I feel so warm and fuzzy inside because some of you are now so "concerned" about my "enfranchisement" that I wonder what where you all were the months, weeks and days leading up to the primary?


"Beauty, more than bitterness, makes the heart break." Sara Teasdale
by april34fff on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 09:09:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2 + 2 = 5? No. Stop the Obama Spin. (2.00 / 1)

But you can't count Florida and Michigan votes as 1 person....

Lets just count them as 3/5 of a person.

Thats one of the Obama lines that pisses me off.

Fractional popular vote totals....

Makes me MADDER THAN HELL.


by DTaylor on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:19:07 AM EST

Re: 2 + 2 = 5? No. Stop the Obama Spin. (2.00 / 1)

Given the history of the civil rights movement, the idea that America's first black presidential candidate would argue to silence voters or render them 3/5 of a person, the irony is... bitter.


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:20:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2 + 2 = 5? No. Stop the Obama Spin. (none / 0)

Oh no they will pick 1/2 not 3/5 but its pretty damn close.

Obama hasn't even begun to see bitter.

Every vote counts as one vote and the results better reflect the winner winning.

If I believe that he won the popular vote when this is all over without any dirty tricks I will even vote for him.

IF you agree that if she wins the popular vote you will vote for her...


by DTaylor on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:26:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I believe 1/2 (none / 0)

is the Republican number.  They set the precedent, and it seems reasonable, because otherwise there is no penalty at all for states that try to jump the starting line.  

Before you criticize the 1/2 vote thing, why not suggest a workable alternative for enforcing discipline on the states in the next election cycle?  Maybe they should all just do them whenever they want, or we should have one big national primary.  There are pros and cons to all those.  But no candidate will ever propose that because they don't want to piss off Iowa and New Hampshire.  


by Dumbo on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:50:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2 + 2 = 5? No. Stop the Obama Spin. (none / 0)

Three Fifths?

Where did that come from?  No one is proposing seating 3/5 of the MI and FL delegations, surely you know the racial history of that number.


by Skaje on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:00:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2 + 2 = 5? No. Stop the Obama Spin. (2.00 / 1)

I was pretty sure the commentor was using a metaphor.  Barack never supported rendering Florida and Michigan at 60%, he wanted them to have even less say: 0%.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:07:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2 + 2 = 5? No. Stop the Obama Spin. (none / 0)

Okay I googled it, you just made that up.  You must think you're pretty clever, huh?  Using that number in this context is pretty offensive.


by Skaje on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:02:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2 + 2 = 5? No. Stop the Obama Spin. (2.00 / 1)

It's an analogy.  Counting people as 1/2 of a person is as bad as counting someone as 3/5 of a person (as they did to AA's in the 18th & 19th century).  They're both "very bad things to do to people."  Self-evidently.  I believe that was the commentor's point.


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:09:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2 + 2 = 5? No. Stop the Obama Spin. (none / 0)

Oh I got the analogy, I just happen to think that's a pretty crap analogy to make considering the race of the candidate he's attacking.


by Skaje on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:17:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

candidate uncommited thanks (none / 0)

you for supporting him


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 11:25:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

There certainly is spin, not sure it's Obama spin (2.00 / 1)

Hmmm... where to begin...

Point 1. A partisan credentials committee? Partisan for Senator Clinton perhaps since it contained, among others, her own senior advisor Harold Ickes who voted for the sanctions against Michigan and Florida. And while you're at it the popular vote metric as quoted by the Clinton campaign adds Florida and Michigan, states that knowingly and willfully violated party rules, and disencranchises Iowa, Nevada, Maine, and Washington, states that did not violate party rules, who did not release popular vote totals

Point 2. Sadly the nominating contest doesn't count popular votes. Even the Clinton campaign said this early in the race, it's a race for delegates. If you want to use a popular vote metric change the rules in 2012.

Point 3. Obama is disfavored by women because he's running against a woman. Clinton is disfavored by African Americans because she is running against an African American. Unless there is something we don't know about John McCain this won't be the case in the general election.

Point 4. If Obama peaked in February why did he win 4 of the 7 contests in March (and 4 of the 6 states)?


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:19:48 AM EST

Re: There certainly is spin, not sure it's Obama s (none / 0)

Its fair to count his edge in votes in caucuses on a 1 vote 1 voter basis.  

But that likely doesn't change the end popular vote result.

And you are dreaming if you think we are voting for Obama after supporter gate my voters won't vote for her...

And the answer is because they were caucuses.


by DTaylor on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:24:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There certainly is spin, not sure it's Obama s (2.00 / 1)

Caucuses are a valid part of the nominating process. A win is a win, I'm sure I heard this somewhere as recently as Tuesday.


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:28:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There certainly is spin, not sure it's Obama s (2.00 / 1)

Caucuses are not valid need to be done away with and I mean that and will never view someone who wins based on caucuses alone as legit for my entire life.

I believe this now, will believe it after the general and won't bother to make waves about it until the next time they actually matter but I hold that belief.

Likewise the withholding of delegates is BS and I thought so the first time I heard about it.  I will never give money to the DNC for the rest of my life as protest over that.  Well thats harsh if they change the rules to remove the possibility of cutting delegates I will reverse myself.

Anyway I won't convince you and you won't convince me.

We will both vote how we will vote.


by DTaylor on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:40:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There certainly is spin, not sure it's Obama s (2.00 / 1)

But they are valid, they are right there in the delegate selection rules. I actually don't really like them and agree they should be removed, and perhaps for the 2012 nominating contest they will be.

But presently they are valid and they should be respected as such. The truth is that the Clinton campaign did not bother to organize for them, which was a terrible mistake on their part. The Obama campaign planned, organized, and spent money in order to win them. Why should he be punished for working to win every vote everywhere?


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:53:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There certainly is spin, not sure it's Obama s (2.00 / 1)

No one is asking for the caucus delegates to be unseated.  

Rather the arguments attacking the caucus structure stress that they aren't persuasive metrics for gaging the will of the people.  It seems that the turnout for most caucuses hovers around 0.4% to 1.8% of the state's population.  That's a ridiculous power grab by a small minority of people.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:56:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There certainly is spin, not sure it's Obama s (2.00 / 1)

Plus, the rules were applied unevenly.  

Iowa and the other states moved their contests to even earlier dates, in violation of the rules, but were not punished.  The "mandatory" halving of their votes was waived.

Iowa/NH/SC got special treatment.  MI/FL are getting kicked in the teeth.  Obama doesn't want to count Michigan & Florida for one reason and one reason only:

Because he lost them!


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:54:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There certainly is spin, not sure it's Obama s (none / 0)

And Clinton wants to count them for one reason only, cause she "won" them.


by gorebeatbush2 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:58:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There certainly is spin, not sure it's Obama s (none / 0)

I think that's right.

Now, what makes more sense... to count the votes or to not count the votes?  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:04:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There certainly is spin, not sure it's Obama s (2.00 / 1)

I think Hillary if the situation were reversed wouldn't have argued to not count a state.

Thats not democracy and her followers wouldn't have followed her there.

Just like I have to admit that Michigan giving delegates to Obama despite no votes is fair given he had real support there even if it means Hillary loses because of it.

I believe is democracy before the party and in the party that believes in democracy before Clinton


by DTaylor on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:29:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

4 (2.00 / 1)

1. If I understand correctly, the remainder of the committee will be finally seated by delegates chosen by the candidates in proportion to their full delegate victories.  

2. A lie.  The popular vote is incorporated through the allowance of unbridled discretion of superdelegates.  They can vote based on the popular vote.  They can vote based on astrological conjugations if they so choose.  The latter may have untoward repercussions.  The former, by June, will likely be the dominant metric.  

3. Obama's electability is an enormous risk.  See above.  

4. In March, immediately off the momentum of 11 straight wins, Barack only won a small primary in Vermont, a caucus in Wyoming, and with very heavy AA turnout, a primary in Mississippi.  And an overseas caucus.  He lost the people's vote in Texas, Ohio, and Rhode Island.  Then he lost decisively in Pennsylvania, even losing the Philadelphia suburbs where he was expected to outperform Hillary by as much as 10 points.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:30:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 4 (2.00 / 1)

You guys don't even see your own hypocrisy do you? It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic. You decry the disenfranchisement of Florida and Michigan and then dismiss states with a heavy African American population as insignificant. About 43% of Pennsylvania voters were white women, are we to discount that state because it has a heavy concentration of Senator Clinton's base?


Proudly joining the legions of people and states that don't matter on May 20th.
by Obama Independent on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:39:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 4 (2.00 / 1)

AA voters are not insignificant.  Obama wins AAs 90-10 or so.

If we had a state that was 100% AA he would win by 80 pts.

But its totally not a 80 pts win like if he won a state by 80% that was made up of a diverse group of people.

Thats still a win.  Its still significant.  Alaska with 6000 voters was a win but it was only a ~2,000 margin of victory win and shouldn't be treated as more important than any other 2000 vote win.

AAs make up 14-18% or whatever it is.  Thats significant in that he has a build in 13-16% of the vote out of that group.  That is a real asset, what hurts Obama is that he only has 3 assets, AAs ,youth, liberal rich folks.

Its no more but its also no less significant than that.

If AAs made up 100% of america and he carried a state by 80 pts it would be MASSIVE MASSIVE MASSIVE MASSIVE significant.

There is a british quote about money that says something like the person who has 1 pound is the king of england up to the price of 1 pound.

Obviously Obama is the AA choice and he is the king up to 13-17% of the vote that that support nets him.  


by DTaylor on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:49:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Huh? (2.00 / 1)

I never argued to disenfranchise any state, let alone a state with high AA demographics.  

Obama wins the AA demographic by over 90%.  If he's the nominee, I would bet he wins the AA vote again by huge margins.  Contests like Mississippi don't tell us anything that we don't already know.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 04:50:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2 + 2 = 5? No. Stop the Obama Spin. (2.00 / 1)

It's sad that no matter what Obama does, you guys will cry foul. I really can't take it.  Hillary signed off on punishing Florida and Michigan.  You can't change the rules in mid-game.  This is what put me firmly in the Obama camp.  Hillary tried to break the rules.  I am not stupid.  
And the same goes with caucuses.  They should probably be gotten rid of, but Hillary agreed to the rules when the nomination contest began, including caucuses.  You can't change the rules after the fact.  Any neutral judge would be able to see this.  It doesn't take much of a brain.  If Hillary hated the rules so much, she should not have signed off on them.
If Obama had tried to pull this shit, I woulda called him on it too, and I probably would have voted for someone else.
It'll be funny when you Clintonistas tried to throw Puerto Rico in with the popular vote too when you need to.
by gorebeatbush2 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:09:21 AM EST

Re: 2 + 2 = 5? No. Stop the Obama Spin. (none / 0)

Why would Puerto Rico not count in the popular vote?  It awards over 50 delegates.

The rules aren't being changed.  

With all respect, I think you are lacking an understanding of the concept of a discretionary disqualification.  Excluding Florida and Michigan is optional per the rules.  It's not required.  It's not mandated.  There is no rule that orders them out.  

Making it seem like their automatically disqualified would be great for Obama, because then his hands would he clean.  Like his supporters, he could just say "it's in the rules!"  

Unfortunately, that's just not what the rules say, contrary to the appearance many clever pro-Obama writers aim to present.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:24:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2 + 2 = 5? No. Stop the Obama Spin. (none / 0)

The rules are delegates, not popular votes.  But if you are going to go by popular votes, don't you think you should decide based on the popular votes of people in the fifty states and DC, since you are just pulling rules out of your ass.  It will be funny when you are behind in the popular vote and then you try to not only argue that Michigan and Florida should count, but also Puerot Rico has put Hillary over the top in popular votes. I am sure people will love that.


by gorebeatbush2 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:29:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2 + 2 = 5? No. Stop the Obama Spin. (none / 0)

I hate to do this, but I have some basic rules questions for you:

1.  Are superdelegates required to choose their nominee based on the total amount of pledged delegates awarded or can they consider other factors?

2.  Is the disqualification of Michigan and Florida mandatory or discretionary?  

3.  Are there any territories outside the continental U.S., Alaska, Hawaii, and Puerto Rico that award delegates for the convention?  

I think you were over the line when you said I pulled rules "out of my a**" because based on what you write above, it doesn't seem you understand the nomination process very well.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:38:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2 + 2 = 5? No. Stop the Obama Spin. (2.00 / 2)

Hilary signed off on them not counting...give me a break.


by gorebeatbush2 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:30:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2 + 2 = 5? No. Stop the Obama Spin. (none / 0)

It's not Hillary's decision to make...


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:38:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2 + 2 = 5? No. Stop the Obama Spin. (none / 0)

1. More people voted for Hillary.

Read as: Rules don't matter to us, so you might as well not believe we're going to do anything we say once we get into the White House. We don't care what votes we count dammit. We heard some people in China got together and did a straw vote for Hillary and she won and gosh darnit we're countin it!

2. The popular vote matters more than pledged delegates.

Read as: We know that popular vote wasn't part of the game before we started, but we can change the rules whenever we want. We're better than you, and more deserving. We can't help it if we lost by the rules, we're still going to win.

3. Obama is the big risk.

Read as: Yes. He's the big scary black man. Voters aren't ready to vote for a black person and we in the Democratic party believe we shouldn't nominate one for that reason. We know that there must be huge skeletons as yet unrevealed in his closet because we've been beating the bushes for them for a year and haven't found anything better than attacking his faith and a peripheral association with a guy who did bad stuff 40 years ago.

Hillary on the other hand is fully vetted, which is why every Republican talking head in the country is busily trying to get Hillary as the nominee, because they know she's the candidate they're most likely to lose to.

4.  Obama peaked in February.

Read as: When we dropped the ball, started cheating our creditors, mismanaged our campaign and effectively lost all chance of legitimately winning the nomination. Since February Hillary has won Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Rhode Island. Obama has won Texas, Vermont, Wyoming, Mississippi, and American Samoa.

::

So Obama supporters are the one's spinning. Ya right.


Your old role is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand, for the times they are a changing.
by Travis Stark on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 09:07:10 AM EST

Re: 2 + 2 = 5? No. Stop the Obama Spin. (none / 0)

1.  More people voted for Hillary clinton when you count the actual total votes cast in the American Democratic primary.  This is a very simple point that needs no elaboration.  I regret that you find it confusing or disingenuous.  

2.  The popular vote is effectively incorporated through unbridled discretion the rules allow for superdelegates.  No one has argued for a rules change.  

3.  The risk stems more from his inability to connect with most voters.  The fact that he is substantially disfavored by every race on the planet except AA's doesn't do much to help his case either.  

4.  Hillary has not crested like a fallen washed up child superstar.  She's been a mainstay in national politics for over 15 years.  By contrast, Barack Obama is well on his way to becoming the next Macaulay Culkin.  By the time November rolls around, the trend followers who oozed such delight for him now will be spinning and disavowing any such allegiance.  He will have that "ick" factor.  Much as I grew to feel dishonest when I was defending John Kerry to friends/family, in 2004 (particularly after his awful third debate performance, re: Mary Cheney), his apologists will be forced to hold their noses and talk the talk.  But when he continues to appear on TV as he actually is and not as the romanticized typhoon of hope/change he pretended to be in January, you will know it in your gut as well.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:45:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2 + 2 = 5? No. Stop the Obama Spin. (2.00 / 1)

A very nice Diary in which you really laid it all down for the Obama robots to scan over. I'm certain they will create another frenzy over the facts, but they just don't seem to care about the facts. As you mentioned they go into this strange and baffling aurora of mathematical figures and decimal points that unless you are a mathematician, we all find to be incredibly boring. This whimsical analysis that  her math just doesn't add up as if the superdelegates are going to spend days on end studying the math, I doubt that they will. Or that  anyone cares whether Hillary won Pa by 10 or 9.4 points. Bottom line on that primary was that she smoked him across the state, but again they only want to talk about the math.  It's best to try and find some humor in their otherwise irrational logic on the state of this race between Hillary and their candidate. I would like for them to start adding up their math about the electoral college and let's see if they can find some rational explanation as to why he can't get to 270.


Steven Shaman Publisher Skywatch-Media News
by steve468 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 10:58:45 AM EST

The only way to accept the statement.... (none / 0)

..that Hillary has won the popular vote is to accept the statement that NO ONE IN MICHIGAN WAS GOING TO VOTE FOR OBAMA.  To accept that premise you would have to be intentionally dishonest or abysmally ignorant (take your pick).

One of the sidelight of these statements is that the Clinton campaign is looking ridiculous by constantly moving the goalpost.  First they say its about delgates, then electibility, then their own version of what is a popular vote.  The only  metric that is important is the one that gives her the nomination.  

To ignore her own statments that the votes in Michigan did not count (interview on NPR)just because now they need them, shows a 1984-like revision of inconvenient facts when it does not suit their purposes.

It is this type of  revision of facts that has lead us into the recent "unpleasantness" in Iraq.  Which, as I remember, Hillary voted for.  Is this what she meant by being ready for the White House on day one?


"You might well think that. I couldn't possibly comment"
by xenontab on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 11:15:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The only way to accept the statement.... (none / 0)

Obama voluntarily removed his name from the Michigan ballot to gain an edge in Iowa.  

I think there probably were people in Michigan who wanted to vote for him, but unfortunately, he didn't want to hear what they had to say and it appears this is still the case.  

Point taken though.  I do acknowledge that Barack Obama would probably have a slim lead in the nationwide popular vote if he kept his name on the Michigan ballot.  I also know that Hillary Clinton would have a staggering lead in delegates over Obama right now if the following states had held primaries rather than caucuses or hybrids: Minnesota, Colorado, Texas, Maine, Washington, all of the Great Plains, and all of the Rockies.  Sometimes that's just how the cards fall though.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:58:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 2 + 2 = 5? No. Stop the Obama Spin. (none / 0)

Thank you for your comment.  Your point on the Obama mathemagicians being incredibly boring is well noted.

People don't want to waste a half hour reading a crackpot theorem about how 54.6 doesn't round up to 55 anymore and how 45.3 doesn't round down to 45.  Similarly, no one wants to hear a far-left anthropologist explain that it's "unoffensive" for high class polished men to gather in San Francisco and crudely psychoanalyze small town voters.  We also don't want to hear how longstanding voluntary associations with violent subversive radicals doesn't reflect on one's character.  BIRDS OF A FEATHER.

I am thrilled to see the Philadelphia suburbs reject the snake oil of Barack Obama so decisively.  He lost every urban county in the state except those containing Philadelphia, Lancaster, and Harrisburg.  It wasn't small towns: Obama lost in Pittsburgh, Wilkes-Barre, Allentown, Bethlehem, Scranton, Erie, Reading, Johnstown, Altoona, Hazleton, York, and so forth. Barack Obama can't even compete in the cities.  IIRC, he also lost Lucas County, Ohio (Toledo), or won it by an embarrassing razor-thin margin, another big shocker.  

When you're running 15% behind John Kerry against a much softer opponent (Hillary Clinton), the writing is on the wall.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:55:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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