The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance"

Hello again,

Thank you to everyone who gave positive feedback and constructive criticism in my first diary here.  Every day, I grow more and more impressed with the balance of viewpoints I see on this site.  So I'm going to write a little bit more.

There's something about this primary that has been bothering me a lot recently, and I cringe everytime I see it.  It's the recurring notion that this primary is "over," that Hillary only has a "5% chance to win," or, as stated prematurely by partisan Obama supporter Senator Patrick Leahy (D-VT), that his nomination is a "foregone conclusion."  I have to disagree.

These memes about an inevitable Obama nomination are repeated in the blogosphere as though they are incontrovertible facts.  Yet they are not.  The truth is actually quite far from the distorted predeterminations that Obama supporters would like to insinuiate stealthily into the media, the popular narrative, the voters, and uncommitted superdelegates.  I'll start with a near verbatim quote from Hillary Clinton as she spoke to a televised audience two weeks ago in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania:

"My opponent has compared this primary to a movie that has gone on far too long.  Well, I happen to like long movies, and we haven't even gotten to the part where he loses Pennsylvania."

The audience cheered.  I smiled too.  Not only did she touch upon this festering issue with direct candor, but she did it with her signature panache of cleverness and good humor that has been surfacing in all of her speeches recently.

Right now, Barack Obama has a modest lead in pledged delegates and 10 contests have yet to weigh in.  With the exception of Guam's caucus (9 delegates), all contests will be decided by primary.  The majority are predicted to elect Hillary (Pennsylvania-158, Indiana-72, Puerto Rico-55) and in some cases, by very broad margins (West Virginia-28, Kentucky-51).  Barack Obama is optimistic about North Carolina (115) and there's some chatter to suggest he will win Oregon (52), although the basis for that assertion is not beyond debate. South Dakota (15) and Montana (16) are anybody's guess--a Great Plains state and Rocky Mountain state voting by primary.  To date, the only state in either of those regions to hold a primary was Utah; everything else was a tailor-made-Obama caucus (Kansas, Nebraska, Minnesota, North Dakota, Wyoming, Idaho, Iowa, Colorado), so it is difficult to infer how a primary will unfold in a region that has thus far only produced caucuses.  Moreover, hundreds of superdelegates remain uncommitted, the results of these final ten contests presumably being intended to serve a probative function in tipping the scale of an undecided mind.

To prematurely proclaim victory now would be like having John Kerry leading George Bush by 25 EV's on election night 2004, with the stunning caveat that Texas (!), Georgia, Colorado, Massachusetts, Tennessee, and five other small states have yet to report.  Of course Kerry supporters would delight in calling on Bush to concede, much as Obama's fan base has predetermined his own victory and made similar solicitations to Hillary.  "Please concede before we hear from your most favorable populous states!  Otherwise, our candidate might lose!"  Oh, the horror.  They might even point to Massachusetts' outstanding EV's, much as Obama supporters rely on the upcoming North Carolina primary, to spell imminent doom and force a concession.  But in either case, concession would be premature.  

As I see it, Hillary's nomination is just as viable a possibility at this point as Barack Obama's.  She will likely not close the gap in pledged delegates, but contrary to popular dogma, pledged delegates are neither the lynchpins to securing the nomination nor are they the most convincing metric to consider for undecided superdelegates.

1.  Superdelegates, not pledged delegates, are going to decide the nomination.

It was initially branded a nightmare scenario and it's well on its way to fruition.  Originally, it was thought that one nominee would accrue insuperable momentum in the early primaries that would create the usual tidal wave of unanimity in the following contests, molding a clear front-runner.  That hasn't happened.

Any way it's sliced, and whether it's done at the convention or by agreement in June, the superdelegates hold the only key to elevating either nominee over the decisive threshold of 2025.  The appearance of usurping the will of the people will inhere in the process regardless of which nominee they choose.  The real question is:

Will they usurp the choice of the raw popular vote, which is almost inevitably going to anoint Hillary?

or

Will they usurp an obscure mathematical apportionment calculus that portrays an Obama advantage, even as it contradicts the actual tally of votes cast?

One would think it beyond peradventure to pose that the popular vote is a more reliable indicator of people's will than an arbitrary assignment of delegates based on districts' past voting behavior.  Nevertheless, "counting people's votes" is not likely to be a point well received by followers of the "new" and "elevated" Obama style of doing politics.  I would anticipate that we will hear ad nausem, "rules are rules and numbers are numbers."

It's then important to remember that yes, rules are rules.  And these sacrosanct rules do state that hundreds of superdelegates are automatically entitled to a vote.  There's nothing illegitimate about that, in terms of pure rules-speak.  What should be done with that vote is the real issue here.

Although it would be very difficult for a conscientious member of the left to embrace the idea that bizarre calculations should trump actual votes, I am confident the Obama proponents will hold their noses and do so, even while knowing full well the deeply undemocratic and chicanerous nature of their position.  

2. Obama's nomination rests upon silencing two of the nation's largest states.

Think about that.  

I'm fully aware of the rules and policy concerns involved in setting up a proper primary schedule, but what could cast more doubt or illegitimacy on a nomination than having it require the exclusion of two major battleground states?

"We lost Florida.  We lost Michigan.  We lost the nation.  But luckily for us, we managed to squelch those two states, so we won."  

I mean, from a purely Democratic Party self-interest perspective, it would be awesome if they never had to count votes from Texas or Idaho, but let's get real here.  That's anathema to the very idea of Democracy.  I disagree with their electoral choices wholeheartedly but would never argue against their fundamental right to vote.  

Punishing and silencing the people of Michigan and Florida is misplaced aggression for a coup performed solely by both states' Republican legislatures.  Despite the guise of "wanting to gain more prominence and attention," it has never been a secret that the primary legislative intent in transplanting the Democratic primary dates was to screw with... you guessed it: the Democratic party.  Lo and behold, they succeeded, brilliantly.    

3. There is no basis for excluding Florida's votes from a popular vote consideration.

While the rules may contain a clause allowing for a discretionary disqualification of Florida's delegates, there is no comparable reason to believe a popular vote tally should not include Florida.  Objectively, there is a stronger albeit not infallible argument for mincing Michigan because only "Uncommitted" appeared on the ballot there, but the voters of Florida clearly expressed a heavy preference for Hillary Clinton in that state.  This is not to suggest Hillary should concede factoring Michigan into a popular vote tally, but some dare-I-say "creative" arrangement will probably be needed to extrapolate the measure of persuasiveness from her victory against an anonymous opponent there, even despite the unofficial Obama-as-Uncommitted campaign.  

4.  Other factors.

A boatload of relevant questions remain percolating regarding the mercurial nature of determining our nominee.  For superdelegates, there is also the issue of electability.  The concept of a candidate appealing strongly to the leftmost wing of the party while wholly alienating the center and then losing a General Election is not novel.  It needs no elaboration how Obama's recent Gary Hart moment exacerbates these concerns.  Polls showing him struggling in New York state (Marist), Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan and flailing in Florida do not serve him well.  This is especially true when campaigning in the latter two states will require an approach a la "I didn't want count your vote then, but please vote for me now."  Given how sensitive the issue self-identification & pride in one's home state can be vis-a-vis assaults launched from out of state (witness PA small town debacle), this won't likely be a concern that disappears after the convention.  

Then there is the question of John Edwards, his influence, and his remaining delegates.  We have three indicators of where his intent may lie.  His wife Elizabeth recently expressed agreement with Hillary's health care plan.  Edwards was reportedly disturbed at Obama's aloof and detached demeanor the day he dropped out of the race.  And now we have the mangled trivialization of impovereshed small town Americans, the very people that Edwards has been championing for all of his adult life.  Both his influence over superdelegates and his own pledged delegates are relevant here.

There is also a "change in momentum" factor that remains to unravel.  A resounding Pennsylvania victory will open a cornucopia of advances for Hillary, in terms of pledged delegates, popular vote, persuasiveness for supers, momentum, and the concerns that Obama cannot win outside of enthusiast-dominated caucuses or states with disproportionately high African American populations.  The fact that it will also reinforce the notion that his San Francisco gaffe has irreversibly wounded him also bears noting.  Further, the change in media tone after Pennsylvania can only help Hillary in places she will need it subsequently: Indiana and North Carolina.  It never hurts to have the "momentum" on your side.  As the viability of her candidacy grows more and more apparent, I'd expect renewed faith to translate into better voting returns.

For all of these reasons, I cringe when I hear that she only has a 5% change of securing the nomination.  Given all of the above, her chances are actually quite good.  And after Pennsylvania, this will grow increasingly evident.  

So if you support Hillary and have been feeling that nauseating pit in your stomach everytime someone mentions what a "long shot" her chances are as though it's gospel, remember, it's just spin.  The facts tell another story.  

Thank you for reading.  


Poll
Hillary will win Pennsylvania by approximately:
5%
10%
15%
20%
25%
30%
35%
40%
100%
Barack Obama will win Pennsylvania because he understands the state. His "cling to" speech was a compliment, not an insult.

Votes: 33
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (2.00 / 2)

While I appreciate the effort in your diary, I'd like to make the following suggestions:

- Linking to data to back up your assumptions would be more beneficial to making your case. One standout that I had to double check was the comment about the popular vote totals. Realclearpolitics.com has a very well regarded and detailed listing of the raw numbers, and shows Obama coming out ahead in popular vote totals including when FL and MI are counted as-is: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/ 2008/president/democratic_vote_count.htm l

- I respectfully suggest that using terms like "Obamans" removes the veneer of impartiality and respectfulness from your diary that would be necessary in making a case for your candidate.

- "cannot win outside of enthusiast-dominated caucuses or states with disproportionately high African American populations" isn't necessarily correct, as he won Vermont (for example). And the assumption that he would lose his current support from other demographics that he currently has isn't reflective of the reality of the situation.

- It would probably be wisest to refrain from assuming that the most recent bout of intercamp bickering over Obama's comments in SF will necessarily hurt him - a recent AP report (albeit unscientific) shows PA voters are generally split, although since there's no raw data its hard to tell still. It would probably be best to wait until something more concrete comes along, but given the previous fracas involving Obama (Rev. Wright) and the resulting non-effect it had on his overall support levels, the chances of this making a major impact are slim.


by upstate girl on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:20:43 AM EST

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (2.00 / 2)

1.  I'm aware of the current popular vote tally.  What I refer to is the final tally.  Even with the most generous allocation to Barack Obama, it's difficult to see him winning.  Pennsylvania stands to net Hillary hundreds of thousands of votes.  Rather than playing clairvoyant and trying to estimate exactly how many votes she will gain, I'll simply propose she will gain "quite a few," and if she does not, then you may smear egg on my face on Tuesday of next week.

2. I am not impartial.  I support Hillary.  There is no "veneer of impartiality" that I am attempting to propound.  I didn't realize the shorthand term I see frequently, "Obamans," was offensive.  I will revise this unartful use of terminology--thank you.

3. I don't believe that a few victories in Obama's home state, its neighboring Wisconsin, or Vermont do much to abate the concern that the overwhelming majority of his victories have been limited to scenarios I outlined above.  He also does well overseas.  

4. If half of the people agree and half disagree, then he has offended half of the electorate and not offended the other half.  I don't see the benefit in offending half of the electorate.  Most telling in the Rasmussen poll was the fact that only liberals agreed with Obama.  Moderates found them offensive.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:39:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (2.00 / 1)

1. Actually the final vote tally (estimated) is also listed at that link and still has Obama in the lead:

Estimate w/IA, NV, ME, WA. FL, MI*             Obama: 14,265,507    47.6%   
Clinton: 14,061,280    47.0%                Obama +204,227    +0.6%

2. I appreciate your consideration in removing the phrase, thank you.

3. The argument still does not take into account the fact that Democratic primaries split "traditionally Democratic" states between two Democrats, not between a Democrat and a Republican. Neither Clinton nor Obama can reasonably say that because they won X state in the primary against another Democrat that they would take that state in the General against McCain. The argument also makes the assumption that states such as NY and CA would turn Republican in the General if X candidate loses, which isn't backed up by any statistical or historical argument.

4. No polls show evidence that Obama lost "half" of any support he may have had - as I stated, his performance in polls against Clinton and McCain have remained virtually unchanged, or increased, after the Reverend Wright episode. The assumption that these issues would suddenly cause problems further on down the road doesn't stand up to scrutiny, since they haven't affected him in the month since, when the issue is freshest in peoples' minds:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/106504/Gallup -Daily-Obama-Numbers-Holding-Strong.aspx


by upstate girl on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:59:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (none / 0)

1.  I have no idea what methodology or estimations were used for individual states, but I have a very hard time seeing a victory in North Carolina and Oregon outweighing the combined popular vote clout of Hillary's anticipated wins in PA, KY, WV, PR, and IN.

2.  No prob.

3.  I understand that losing/winning a primary in a state is not a predictor of losing/winning a general election.  I was referring to the Dem Nominee v. McCain polls on RCP.

4.  There appears to be a halt of any momentum Obama may have had in Pennsylvania.  The SUSA poll believed to be an outlier last week has been confirmed.  The admittedly disreputable ARG poll was rather shocking.  And the Quin poll likewise shows a halt of movement towards Obama.  

There will never be a precise measurement of exactly how much the San Francisco incident has hurt Barack Obama, just as we will never know precisely what, if any, impact gay marriage bans tangibly had on the outcome of the 2004 election.  (My opinion is that their impact was overestimated.)  That said, it's difficult to imagine that flying to San Francisco and getting caught, red-handed, insulting the people of the very state in which you're campaigning would have any beneficial effect on your prospects in that state.  Last week, the hope was that Obama would narrow the gap to under 5% in PA.  This week the hope is that he manages to keep it under 15%.  That's... different, to say the least.


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:53:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (2.00 / 1)

Ahhh, and we haven't even discussed the Rezko trial and the possibility that Fitzgerald will win a conviction for bribery against him, at which point, the spotlight turns irrevocably to Obama's boneheaded venture with Rezko. Was it a bribe? And if it wasn't, what the heck was it? His campaign has yet to offer up a reasonable explanation as to how that deal came about between the two of them.


by Little Otter on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:31:18 AM EST

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (none / 0)

Good point.  We're witnessing the piecemeal exposure of a relative unknown and should learn a big lesson from investing so much in a gigantic question mark.  I think we're also at the cusp of the proverbial "build 'em up and tear 'em down" media sadism.

Thanks for the comment.  :-)


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:47:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (none / 0)

Ok, for the last time... There is no "there" in the Obama/Rezko thing ... because there IS no Obama/Rezko thing.

I live in the chicago metro area...and I've followed this case quite closely.

The guy in trouble is NOT obama it's our idiot governor Rod Blagoevich.

I wish you people who don't know anything about this would get that through your skulls


by CaptMorgan on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:26:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (2.00 / 0)

Hillary Clinton would have to seriously overperform in the remaining contests to win the popular vote.  Even if she "wins" that, it's as meaningless a metric as any of the other arbitrary ones (number of states won, big states vs. small states, red states vs. blue states) in choosing our nominee.  Caucus states always have lower turnout than primaries, if we're going to decide based on popular vote then every state would have had a primary to increase their clout.  Also, closed primaries have lower turnout than semi-open primaries, which bring independents into the process.  And finally, semi-open primaries have lower turnout than completely open primaries, which allow Republicans to weigh in on picking our nominee.  How can we reconcile the differences between the states' level of inclusiveness?

Also, how should we count Texas for popular vote?  Obama narrowly lost the primary, but won the caucus by a solid margin, how do we count that?  If we count the delegate-less states of Michigan and Florida in the popular vote tally, should we also count the delegate-less primary that Washington state held (which Obama narrowly won)?    How do we even start to count Iowa, a state in which Obama improved markedly on the second round of conventions?

We use delegates to pick our nominee, let's count delegates.

However, it is true that superdelegates are free to back whomever they choose, it is entirely within the rules for them to vote against the winner of the pledged delegate count, should they decide to do so.  Whether that is a good idea...we will obviously differ in opinion.


by Skaje on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:39:09 AM EST

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (2.00 / 1)

It really depends on wether Howard Dean owns the DNC or the voters own the DNC.

If Howard Dean owns the DNC then he better be prepared to supply the votes in the general election that he will lose.

If the people own the DNC we will count Florida AND Michigan and Hillary has been winning this whole time.

The matter has not been decided.

You speak about it as though it has but thats because you are trying to brainwash people into thinking that there is no way within the rules that Hillary can win.

In fact within the rules Hillary is already winning if the rules committee goes her way.

If Obama wins because of a back room deal to steal the election from Florida and Michigan then its game over for the democratic party coalition for our lifetime.


by DTaylor on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 04:49:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (2.00 / 0)

Obama is so far ahead he is winning even if Florida and Michigan are counted as is (Obama getting 0 delegates from the latter).  But believe whatever you want.

I did not say there is no way Clinton can win within the rules.  In fact I explicitly said it is within the rules for Clinton to win by superdelegates.  I just said we will likely disagree about whether that is a good thing.

For Clinton to win by seating the flawed MI and FL delegations, after the DNC voted to strip them of their delegates, that is NOT within the rules.


by Skaje on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:13:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Point by point rebuttal (2.00 / 2)

When I saw the title, The Myth of Hillary's 5% chance, I assumed you were going to say it was really 0%, which is closer to the truth.

1.  Superdelegates, not pledged delegates, are going to decide the nomination.

This is true.  But it is unlikely that the superdelegates will be willing to give the nomination to the candidate who received the fewest votes and the fewest pledged delegates, which at this time is Hillary.  Hillary still has a big advantage towards even this goal, because her husband used to be President and head of the Democratic Party, and there are numerous functionaries and elected official superdelegates who owe them favors.  But these same superdelegates have to have a sense of self-preservation, and doing a favor for an old friend won't fly very well if it ends up sacrificing the credibility of the party's nomination.

And what about the winner of the popular vote?  This is hard to calculate, because we have no popular vote numbers for caucuses, and it's hard to come up with a formula to try to guesstimate them.  A formula that penalized Obama for winning caucuses rather than primaries would also penalize the caucus states, causing them to challenge the legitimacy of such a method.  

And, worse, Hillary herself has said that winning even the popular vote is not sufficient reason for superdelegates to choose the nominee.  Numerous Hillary supporters here and on TalkLeft (remember Armondo?) spoke out against her when she did this, asserting that she had sacrificed the high road.

She has also said that pledged delegates are not really "pledged," implying that even if superdelegates don't give her the victory, that poaching of pledged delegates is allowable.  This is unconscionable.

And, finally, if the winner of the pledged delegate majority is a young African-American to a well-connected, "elite" (yes, that word) member of the Democratic Party machine, with all the connections and bigwig friends, even though that elite candidate had fewer pledged delegates, many people will cry out that it is unfair and illegitimate, no matter what justification you offer up, and no matter how fair you feel it is.  There will be ghastly division over a candidate so-chosen, and we will likely lose in November.  The Clintons would be so stigmatized in such a situation that their role in Democratic politics would be at an end.

Therefore, the superdelegates will not overturn the votes of the pledged delegates, no matter what rationalization is put forward, no matter how loyal they feel to the Clintons.  It would be a disaster, and the saner heads in the Democratic Party will prevent that from happening.

Chance of this: Zero percent

2. Obama's nomination rests upon silencing two of the nation's largest states.

It doesn't rest upon this.  The rules preclude it.  Hillary agreed to the rules.  Her own man, Harold Ickes, was key in creating these rules.  

But let's play this game out anyway.  Florida only gives Hillary a +38 pledged delegate margin, if all are seated at full value.  If they are seated at half-value, as the Republicans did (and that is a key precedent) then Hillary's victory margin is only +19.  

The most ludicrous part of this is the claims being made about Michigan.  Hillary partisans would like to claim all of Michigan delegates for hillary, which is silly since Obama's name was not on the ballot, and this is something he would never agree to.  Nobody would ever find this fair, no matter how sympathetic they would feel for the voters of Michigan.

And there are worse problems than that.  The latest poll from just this Saturday by Lansing EPIC-MRA had the following results:

Lansing poll:

There are also signs of an unsettled electorate. Clinton won Michigan's Jan. 15 primary, but was the only major candidate on the ballot. Now, 42 percent of Michiganians in the survey said they would prefer that Obama win the Democratic nomination, to 37 percent for Clinton; 21 percent are undecided. And 51 percent of those surveyed said they were at least somewhat likely to change their mind on a presidential candidate between now and November.

That's Obama 42 to Clinton 37, when Michiganians are offered two names to choose from.  Based on this poll, Michiganians do not prefer Clinton, thus the argument for giving her all Michigan delegates falls flat on its face as a silly partisan argument.  

Worse, in the same poll at the link, in general election head to head matchups with McCain, Obama beats McCain by 2, Hillary loses to McCain by 9.  This can't help Hillary's superdelegate coup argument.

In fact, a good argument could be made that Michigan's delegates should be split up NOT 50/50, but according to an average of the latest polls.  In such a case, Obama would GAIN pledged delegates from seating Michigan.  

All in all, this does very little to help Hillary close Obama's 150+ delegate spread.  +19 (at best) from Florida, ZIP (at best) from Michigan).  And if you insist on counting Michigan, Obama can insist on counting it in a way less favorable for Hillary.  

Chance of getting Florida+Michigan instated at full value: Zero %

But your argument seems to be that it would seem so unfair that this could be used as a premise for a superdelegate nullification of the pledged delegate majority.  As explained in 1. above, this is not going to happen.

3. There is no basis for excluding Florida's votes from a popular vote consideration.

Yes there is.  Hillary agreed that Florida and Michigan did not count.  (We even have it on tape.)  Hillary had the more famous name.  Both agreed to not campaign there, and whether or not you agree or disagree that they obeyed this strictly, the fact remains that Hillary had a huge advantage in name recognition that would have been dented at least to some degree if Florida had counted and had it been contested.  So there is a basis.

But as stated before in 1. above, Hillary has excluded popular vote winning as a sufficient basis for being the choice of the superdelegates.  Her argument is based entirely on electability, and you should acknowledge that and address that, if you want to stay consistent.  

4.  Other factors.

Now, here you introduce various general election "electability" arguments.  But look at the MyDD front-page!  There are electoral-vote maps for both Hillary vs. McCain and Obama vs. McCain, and they show Hillary losing by a whopping 88 margin based on Jerome's interpretation of the latest polls.  

Now, you can say, these are just the latest polls and they mean nothing!  Indeed.  Exactly, and the same goes for any of the arguments you make about general election electability about Obama based on polls or recent gaffes and scandals.  November is far away.  And, at the present moment, Hillary is NOT performing by the best measures as the most electable candidate.  

For the superdelegates to give the nomination to the candidate with the least pledged delegates, they would have to have at the very least an ENORMOUS reason to overturn the results of the elections.  Assassination, plane accident, debilitating stroke, arrest: something like that.  Assassinations in primary cycles have happened before, like in 1968, when Humphrey got the nomination that he surely would have otherwise lost.  Nixon won.  Too bad for everybody.

(Even worse, if Obama were assassinated, you can be sure that there would be persistent rumors for many decades that somebody, either the Clintons or Bush or the CIA, knocked him off.  That's what happened with both Kennedy assinations.  And considering the enormous acrimony right now, I lay odds that the Clintons would suffer most of the conspiracy theory speculation.)


by Dumbo on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 06:32:07 AM EST

What you said. (none / 0)

And one more key observation: the maps you cite show John McCain taking New York, based on a Marist poll a few days ago.

No non-incumbent republican has won a statewide election in New York since 1994. Our state has not gone red in the Presidential race since Reagan's 1984 landslide. It's not going red in 2008.

Take New York out of McCain's ledger and give it to Obama, and he would win the Presidential election if it were held today. Hillary would lose.

The Hillary-more-electable argument ultimately rests on her supporters belief in game-changing events (beyond her control) that would destroy Obama. We have now seen several of these, according to them, none of which - Wright, Rezko, "typical white people", "Bittergate" - have proven effective. In short, this entire argument is a classic case of magical thinking.

Obama will win the nomination and the general.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:35:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Point by point rebuttal (none / 0)

This was a very good post with good counter arguments.

I'll respond.

1.  There's no doubt the superdelegate resolution of this will be thorny.  

"Hillary herself has said that winning even the popular vote is not sufficient reason for superdelegates to choose the nominee."

Although I recall that happening, I am fairly confident she can "rephrase" (it's fashionable these days) her argument as meaning the popular vote ipso factor is not sufficient.  In other words, the popular vote should be considered as a strong factor, but should not be the sole determining metric.  Heck, she may even say, "The popular vote is the most important metric, but it's not the only metric; my advantages in electability are relevant as well."  

As for the discrepencies between the states' methods of primaries (open v. closed), I don't see the distinctions making the popular vote tally any less persuasive than the seemingly arbitrary results produced by the byzantine apportionment system, particularly when involving caucuses.  

2. The rules allow for a discretionary disqualification of Florida and Michigan; they do not mandate their exclusion.  Errant remarks from candidates months ago are irrelevant to the larger question of "what sort of message does the party send to the nation and to those states specifically by voiding hundreds of thousands of votes?"

You also say,

"In fact, a good argument could be made that Michigan's delegates should be split up NOT 50/50, but according to an average of the latest polls."

But there isn't.  There's never any basis for fabricating an imaginary outcome as a substitute for a state's actual votes.

3. Is your argument that superdelegates shouldn't consider the votes of hundreds of thousands of Floridians simply because Hillary said so?

4a. Polls taken right now are not very probative.

4b. But even if they were, the calculator is off; based on the latest polling data, Hillary should be leading in Ohio and Michigan.  I'm not too convinced she would actually lose Washington, Oregon, New Hampshire, or Minnesota.  And to be fair, Florida should be a toss up.  Likewise, to be fair, Obama should be winning New York state but losing Ohio, losing North Carolina, and potentially losing Pennsylvania and Michigan.  

4c. The electability argument is going to revolve more around public perception and ability to appeal to the center.  Hillary is at a major advantage here.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:16:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (none / 0)

Great post BPK80. I love the way they (obamans) keep wanting Hillary to just give up. What I love even more is the fact that she won't. It is what makes her the best candidate and a great president. What is it they say? "Yes we can".

Oh and Howard Dean is free to change the rules for the Florida and Michigan counts any time. He changed them to unseat them so he can change them back. Not counting Michigan or Florida would be disasterous for the democratic process but I love Obama's arguments that we should just split the delegates for those states in half and not take into account who won. Ya think that would be his attitude if he had won them? Yup that is just waht we need a candidate for the Novemeber who doesn't think we should count all the votes (and in Florida no less)

Thanks again  


by Bornagaindem on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 07:10:08 AM EST

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (none / 0)

Thank you.  I have no doubt Obama would argue to seat the delegations of FL and MI had he won them.  And to be fair, I also believe Hillary would argue to exclude them had she lost them.  It's nothing new; just politics-as-usual.  ;-)


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:18:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (2.00 / 1)

Reality Check...

If you give Hillary every advantage, loosing no states, seating FL and MI's full delegates, she still can't catch up, just can't.  

For the sake of argument let's say she win's each of the states below by the margin I list and see what happens.  

Pennsylvania by 20
Guam by 10
Indiana by 20
North Carolina Even Split
West Virginia by 20
Kentucky by 20
Oregon by 10
Puerto Rico by 20
Montana by 10
South Dakota by 10
Florida by 10 (With Full Delegate Count)
Michigan by 10 (With Full Delegate Count)

She still looses by 50 delegates, 1799 to 1749
 http://www.slate.com/id/2185278/

Go use the calculator for youself.  I agree,5% is a Myth but only because there isn't that high a chance.  Please take no offense but to be candid, due to the "winner takes all" method the Republicans use, Huckabee had a better chance to win the repubican nomination if he had gone on a 10 state run.  The mechanics of the democratic nomination and Obama's 12 state streak with such high margins (Maryland,VA, Mississippi, (WI smallest margin of that run at 17%) means there just are not enough states and margin left to catch up.  Obviously these facts will not be well received here, but they are the facts.  


"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it" -DL Moody
by nextgen on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:10:51 AM EST

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (none / 0)

This contest was over when Hillary failed to net any significant number of delegates in Ohio and Texas. I guess she now hopes to convice the Supers to overturn the will of the people, which just ain't gonna happen. We have a nominee. Let's support him.  


"As Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where-where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border."
by fugazi on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:15:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (2.00 / 1)

Funny you should mention Ohio and Texas, people forget what the Clinton camp was saying just a few months ago.

"By Mark Penn

To: Interested Parties

From: Mark Penn, Chief Strategist

Date: Wednesday, February 13, 2008

Re: The Path to the Nomination

This election will come down to delegates. Votes are still being counted and delegates apportioned, but Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are separated by approximately 40 delegates right now - that is, barely 1% of all the delegates to the Democratic convention.

Change Begins March 4th. Hillary leads in the three largest, delegate rich states remaining: Texas, Ohio and Pennsylvania. These three states have 492 delegates - 64 percent of the remaining delegates Hillary Clinton needs to win the nomination. According to the latest polls, Hillary leads in Texas (IVR Jan 30-31), Pennsylvania (Franklin & Marshall Jan 8-14) and Ohio (Columbus Dispatch Jan 23-31). After March 4th, over 3000 delegates will be committed, and we project that Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama will be virtually tied with 611 delegates still to be chosen in Pennsylvania and other remaining states."

Then he goes on to say this;

"As history shows, the Democratic nomination goes to the candidate who wins the most delegates "

http://thepage.time.com/penn-memo-the-pa th-to-the-nomination/


"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it" -DL Moody
by nextgen on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:35:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You appear to have misread the diary (none / 0)

With all respect, I think you missed the central point.  The point was that pledged delegates are not the sina qua nons of winning this thing.  The power lies with the superdelegates.  The focus of the diary is on viable arguments she could make for superdelegates.  I admitted myself she probably couldn't close the pledged delegate gap (absent perhaps an endorsement from Edwards effectively assigning his remaining delegates to her).  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:20:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You appear to have misread the diary (none / 0)

First, thanks for the calm respectfull response to my post, we need more like this.  

I didn't miss the central point I just chose to address some of the supporting arguments, ie any refrence to "popular vote". My post and quotes were supporting the point that the popular vote is not the metric in play here and used Mark Penn's own words to support that point.  

Without resorting to the rules I could do the same about the validity of counting the MI vote in any way, shape form using Sen. Clintons own words.  

One of your central points was the SD's would need to overturn the Popular vote or Elected delegates which is incorrect on both counts.  


"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it" -DL Moody
by nextgen on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:32:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (2.00 / 1)

Dumbo made a great counterpost. I know you guys are trying to parse a way to count a win for Clinton anyway you can, it just ain't gonna happen. Disagree with me all you want, Obama's gonna be the nominee. shrug It doesn't mean you guys are supporting your candidate foolishly or for no reason- I'm certain there are very heartfelt reasons you support her, and they're all valid because you feel them- but it's just not going to happen. Sorry.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:35:03 AM EST

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (none / 0)

nice first diary!


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:38:15 AM EST

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (none / 0)

Thank you!


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:21:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The Reality of Hillary's "0% Chance" (1.00 / 2)

After taking a crap on Al Gores head, I think her chances are closer to zero. But I am sure she will "roll up her shirt sleeves" (gag) and "soldier on".

It's like watching a car crash in slow motion.
In bright pink.


by jwolf on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:39:21 AM EST

Re: The Reality of Hillary's "0% Chance" (none / 0)

I don't agree.

I have a lot of respect for Gore and view him as a gentleman very much removed from the petty fray of campaign politics.  It would surprise me for him to do something emotional and in retaliation for Hillary, because he seems to understand the dignity of keeping a low profile.  I think he will stay silent until a nominee is chosen.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:06:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (none / 0)

lol Obama supporters I don't even know why you guys try anymore.

I would just let it go, and save this type of discussion when they actually provide math.

otherwise what you are doing is saying No your opinion is wrong, my opinion is right!

and they come back no your opinion is wrong my opinion is right.

if they can't actually lay out a path to her win, say

a 15 point win in PA and a 10 point win in IN, slates tells us this gives this many delegates and Jay Costs popular vote count gives us this, the polling suggests that Hillary can get a 10 point win in IN so that after that we are here, she will perform like so in NC....

they don't actually use math, so why debate their opinions, they are entitled to it. but make no mistake alot of them still seriously believe Hillary is taking PA by 20 points and WV by 20 and PR by 30. and if you point this out well then they just want to ignore the math, so eh let it go, they will set the expectations higher, and in the end actually ALL sides want Hillary's expected wins to be as high as possible.


Dream for tomorrow but fight for it today.
by TruthMatters on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:42:32 AM EST

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (2.00 / 1)

As a BO supporter and longtime lurker. I agree the the numbers show that HRC is finished in the pledged delegate hunt. Do we really need comments with this kind of tone. I don't think the people who support HRC are stupid. They support and LIKE her. So please stop acting as a sore winner and slamming people who are supporting their candidate as long as they think its viable.


by KosTexasliberal on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:29:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (none / 0)

Thank you.

I don't think Hillary can catch up in pledged delegates, but I think she has strong arguments for superdelegates, which do matter.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:07:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm starting to feel bad for you folks. (none / 0)

She can't catch up and the supers aren't going to give it to her.

People claim that the race is close but the fact is ~150 ahead is a lot as delegates are allocated proportionately. You see how hard it is for HRC to catch up? It was just that hard for Obama to get ahead by so much but he did.

As far as MI & FL go.

1) Adults decided to violate DNC rules. Hold those adults accountable if you want to whine about someone.

2) MI wouldn't pass the smell test since Clinton's name was the only one on the ballot. You want to allocate 55/45? That seems fair.

3) FL can go as is and she still can't catch up. However, I'm sure they'll be seated at the convention in some manner.

4) No one has a right to a primary. HRC herself said they wouldn't count. HRC didn't care about the states after 2/5 counting since she figured she'd have it wrapped up. Most states never matter in primaries.

If you lose your vote in the GE let me know. Then there's a problem.


My candidate lost fair and square. So did yours. Get over it and let's kick McSame's ass!
by RLMcCauley on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:06:35 AM EST

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (none / 0)

http://rasmussenreports.com/public_conte nt/politics/election_20082/2008_presiden tial_election/daily_democratic_president ial_primary_tracking_polling_history

9 Points now....


"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it" -DL Moody
by nextgen on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:39:09 AM EST

Popular Vote Does Matter (none / 0)

Exclude caucuses, and the popular vote is quite close. Hillary should win the popular vote quite decisively that counting Florida would put her over the top even when excluding Michigan and including the caucus states.

The last time we nominated a candidate that lost the popular vote in primaries (Humphrey won more votes than McGovern) we lost 49 states. Thus, I believe that the superdelegates have to factor in the national popular vote in deciding who is more electable and who they should vote for.


Dizzy Zzyzzy
by Zzyzzy on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:57:00 AM EST

Re: Popular Vote Does Matter (none / 0)

Except your assmuptions are dead wrong.  You can't just eleminate the results you don't like.  Now if you want to understand how the caucus states impacted the popular vote, here is a study from Wharton which suggest Obama would actually lead by MORE if the caucus states were primary votes.

http://www.dcourage.com/Caucus%20Study.p df

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story!


"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it" -DL Moody
by nextgen on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:07:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Popular Vote Does Matter (none / 0)

Ah, but the problem is that assumes Obama would win a primary by the EXACT same margin of victory he won his caucuses.  As we saw in Texas and Washington state, it doesn't work that way.

I'd gladly welcome a primary in Colorado, Minnesota, North Dakota, Kansas, Idaho, Iowa (!), and Wyoming in place of the Obama-skewed caucuses.


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:23:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Popular Vote Does Matter (none / 0)

You should have read the study before making that assumption, that is not what was done, it's far more in depth that that.  As a matter of fact here is small snipit on that point..

"However, using the caucus vote to split the hypothetical primary vote is extreme, since there is evidence that caucus voters are fundamentally different from primary voters.8 Two states actually have had both a primary and a caucus: Texas, which uses the results from both to assign delegates, and Washington, which uses only the caucus to assign their delegates but still holds a primary"

You should read the study then come back with your thoughts.  


"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it" -DL Moody
by nextgen on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:43:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Popular Vote Does Matter (none / 0)

"The Combined Effect on the Popular Vote Armed with our state-by-state estimates of primary voters and Obama's margin of victory, we combine the estimates to predict that Obama would have won these 13 caucus states by 778,000 votes.12 Since the caucuses actually gave Obama a boost of just 169,000 votes, our calculations suggest that Obama's lead in the current national popular vote tally would be roughly 600,000 votes larger had all the caucus states held primaries. Conclusion As with all statistical analysis, all of our calculations come with a certain degree of imprecision. However, our goal is more modest than to forecast the exact results of hypothetical primaries. Rather, we wish to make three broad points. First, because voter turnout is lower in caucuses, the popular vote dramatically devalues the popular will of citizens of caucus states. Second, the size of the devaluation is large, given that about one-third of states have used caucuses and caucus turnout is only one-fifth of primary turnout. Finally, both the actual caucus results and the results of our hypothetical primaries suggest that were every state to have held primaries, Obama would have a larger lead in the current tally of the popular vote."

Perhaps this segment of it misled me.  I did believe they had hypothesized based on the exact margins of victory.  I did read the study (though I had to find it myself w. the link not working), and you could have been less hasty to assume otherwise.


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:26:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Popular Vote Does Matter (none / 0)

To be fair you must admit, that any complete reading of the study would support your comment that they used the exact results from the caucuses.  

The fact that you drew that conclusion would leave many resonable people to beleive you didn't read the entire study, since it states clearly that applying the exact caucus results would be inaccurate.

Right?


"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it" -DL Moody
by nextgen on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:47:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Popular Vote Does Matter (none / 0)

I will be fair.  I did not study it in great detail or painstaking depth and appear to have misread the above paragraph.  Pardon my haste.    


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:36:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Popular Vote Does Matter (none / 0)

For what reason are you excluding the caucuses? Didn't those people vote? Don't their votes count? Do you want to disenfranchise them? and FYI, even including MI and FL as voted, Obama is STILL ahead in the popular vote.


"I am standing with Barack Obama to say, `Yes, we can!'" Hillary Clinton 6/7/08
by feliks on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:39:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (none / 0)

Great Diary, I rec'd it.

Since you're new and I'm still learning. How do you make words or sentences bold in your diary?


by nikkid on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:17:33 AM EST

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (none / 0)

Thank you. :-)

I put asteriks around words to make them bold.  I still haven't figured out italics or block quotes here yet, but one time, I tried to add block quotes and the whole thing came out in italics.


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:25:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (none / 0)

you have to be kidding me..balanced viewpoints??? sorry to burst your bubble BUT even with Florida and Michigan included AS ALREADY VOTED, Obama is STILL ahead in popular vote......so your premise that HRC WILL win the popular vote is flawed.
     Please explain wwhat" obscure mathematical apportionment calculus that portrays an Obama advantage" means. Are you referring to DELEGATES? The last time I looked the primary was a contest to amass delegates, nothing obscure at all.
and fyi, latest polling shows Obama Beating Mccain in Michigan by a LARGER margin than Hillary.

Thank you for such a "balanced" diary.
     


"I am standing with Barack Obama to say, `Yes, we can!'" Hillary Clinton 6/7/08
by feliks on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:36:20 AM EST

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (none / 0)

Re: Popular Vote

Last I checked, not all states had reported.  Obama has a narrow lead right now, excluding Pennsylvania and the subsequent contests.  I have serious doubts the calculus will spell the same result after 4/22.


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:11:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (none / 0)

Poular vote:
Obama +827,308    +3.0%
For what it's worth.......any gains made by Hillary in Pennsylvania will be erased in North Carolina.any other gains will be erased by oregon, Montana,Idaho and South dakota.....
"I am standing with Barack Obama to say, `Yes, we can!'" Hillary Clinton 6/7/08
by feliks on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:30:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (none / 0)

Popular Vote (w/FL)   13,931,423 48.5% 13,509,109 47.1%    Obama +422,314 +1.4%

Popular Vote (w/FL & MI)**   13,931,423 47.6% 13,837,418 47.2%    Obama +94,005 +0.4%

Pennsylvania is a lot bigger than North Carolina.  And there are more Democrats per populace here.  Montana/South Dakota are small.  Combined, they have less delegates than West Virginia.  Indiana is not small.  Puerto Rico is not small.  And Idaho already voted (?).  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:41:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (none / 0)

It's a contest for delegates!  Read this and weep:
http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?do cID=news-000002703375&cpage=1
"I am standing with Barack Obama to say, `Yes, we can!'" Hillary Clinton 6/7/08
by feliks on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 01:37:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (none / 0)

BPK80, your "second" post.  Yeah, ok.
On the date that SHillary finally steps aside and begs for some dignified position in the Obama framework, I trust that you will write a "billionth" diary entry wherein you admit that you were overly optimistic, blind to realism, and committed to keeping your head up your a-s for purely partisan reasons.
Shill for Hill.  
Change is coming soon.
by jv on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:42:03 AM EST

Re: The Myth of Hillary's "5% Chance" (none / 0)

This is my second diary here.  What are you trying to controvert about that?  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:43:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: its very, very simple (none / 0)

There is no evidence that the FL revote was scrapped for any reason other than the fact that it was logistically impossible to pull off.  There is no evidence that Obama did anything to "block" a revote there or that his actions had any effect on the state's decision.  With MI it is also unfair to say that he "blocked revotes".  He argued against a single proposal that would have disqualified a demographic that skews disprpoportionally to him--those Dems who voted in the Rep primary without knowing there might be a new Dem contest inw hich they might be ineligible to vote b/c of their previous choice.  You can call this "blocking" if you want but if a proposal was floated to disqualify one of Hillary's demographic group supporters--say women or Latinos--I'm sure she would balk as well.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 12:12:21 PM EST

Re: Right .... (none / 0)

If you think that Obama played any substantial role in blocking the FL vote then provide evidence to support that contention.  I've seen numerous posts saying Obama "blocked" the Florida revotes, but even when I challenge the posters they refuse to say exactly what he did.  Say what he did to "block" the revote or stop spreading lies.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 05:39:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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