Why would anyone be offended?

(This is my first diary here.  I love it here so far.  Cross posted at dailykos.)

We all love someone who can stand up in front of a potentially hostile audience and speak their mind candidly, despite fear of retribution.  Some would argue that's exactly what Barack Obama did at his now notorious fundraiser in Pacific Heights, California.  But I'm hearing arguments being used to defend his speech that are, in my opinion (call it the "truth" if you're willing to afford me the same generosity afforded to Obama's opinion), completely missing the mark.  So I have a few points to raise.  

Here's why people are offended.  

1.  It's not the usage of "bitter."

If Obama had stated that voters were bitter about the state of the economy, no one would have blinked an eye.  It's not the most flattering way to say that someone's angry, but it would have been an innocuous poor turning of phrase.  

The controversial and insulting part of his speech is the part where he says that bitterness is the reason small town voters in Pennsylvania "cling" to their religion, guns, and anti-immigrant/anti-trade sentiments.  That trivializes some of the most deeply held convictions of these people as mere inevitable peripherals of poverty, a condition itself which isn't exactly a flattering attribution to a large diverse voting block (non-urban Pennsylvania/Ohio/America).  

Former Iowa governor Vilsack said it most succinctly:

"I think the most glaring misreading and misunderstanding of people in small towns were Senator Obama's comments about God and guns. He suggests that in some way the faith of those who live in small towns is superficial. It's used as a crutch in a time of need. That's not what I know. What I know is that our faith is real and it is rooted. It is the foundation of our values system. It is what defines how we live our lives, and most importantly of all, how we raise our families. It is true. It is genuine."  (Forgive me for not having luck getting the block quote function to work yet.)

The context of Obama's quote is actually just as deleterious as the most publicized snippets.  It shows him not only blaming his poor performance in Pennsylvania in part on his race ("when it's delivered by a 46 year old black man named Barack Obama [Audience Laughter]") but belitting small town Pennsylvanians as "working-class lunch-pail folks."  I have read this quote to people and seen their eyes bulge and jaws drop.  I can't imagine anyone responding well to a Harvard-educated political celebrity highlighting the fact that they use a modest lunch-pail, using it to typify them, and doing it in front of a believed-to-be-private fundraiser to the merriment of upscale Californians.  These are the problems with Obama's speech, not the mere usage of the word "bitter."

2.  It doesn't matter if what he said was arguably "true."
It is inappropriate to say something disparaging and then blithely defend it solely on the basis of its truth.  

Example 1:

"You're really fat because you eat so many carbs."

"Say what!?"

"But it's true.  I mean it can be scientifically and medically proven.  You're over 650 pounds and if you ate less pasta, you would store less energy."

Example 2:

"Black people are impoverished so they cling to crime."

"WHAT!?" [outrage, and rightfully so]

"But it's true.  It's in all the sociology texts, justice system statistics, etc.  It's not their fault though; it's just the poor socioeconomic conditions to which America and its government has abandoned them."  (See a parallel?  a la "I didn't insult you, I just stated [what I consider] to be a socioeconomic fact.")

Example 3:

"Big city voters vote for trendy fad du jour candidates because it gives  them a sense of self-identity otherwise lacking in the overwhelm and anonymity of congested urban life."  

"Huh?" [offense, naturally]

"But it's true.  There's this book called 'What's the Matter with Kansas City' and it explains everything..."

Example 4:

"Small town voters are so poor that they have nothing and they end up clinging to religion, guns, and xenophobia."

[jaws drop]
... except on DailyKos where what Obama says is fine because,

"it's true.  It's a sociological 'fact' that when people are disenfranchised economically, they crutch on faith, and vent their frustration through private gun use and hate towards outsiders."

I think the parallels are clear.  In each case, the initial comment should have not even been thought, let alone outwardly spoken.

3.  Hillary Clinton never denied that small-town Americans were angry.

A human being can have bitterness towards the government without having that be their defining trait.  Hillary positively characterized Pennsylvanians as "optimistic" and "resilient."  She said nothing to suggest they weren't dissatisfied with their government nor did she suggest that Pennsylvanians are oblivious joy-beamers living in a utopia bubble.  One can be "bitter" towards government while at the same time be a strong forward-looking person.  This is the essence of Hillary's comment.  When a politician describes a population as "optimistic," "resilient," and "hardworking," you really have to join a circus of logical gymnastics to misconstrue her language as "pandering," "condescending," or "ignorant" of the population's dissatisfaction with government.  

I like seeing the continued discussion here with nuance.  I only hope that there is a better way to defend Obama's comment than with "all he did was call them bitter, and rightfully so!" or "but it's true!" or "Hillary just pandered, what does she think everyone is--oblivious!?"

Thanks for reading.



Display:


Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 12)

Very well put.


by DTaylor on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:19:40 AM EST

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 9)

Thank you.


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:13:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 2)

I'm guessing this diary was not well-received over at Big Orange.


by creeper1014 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:31:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 4)

Brilliant diary!

My jaw dropped.
Because it's true.

Rec'd.


Re-elect the President in 2012
by DemAC on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:18:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (none / 0)

Well because the PA voters have lived with the failures of the Clinton and Bush [both] administrations and the lies of the Clintons in this campaign they have every reason to be bitter. And angry and pissed off. The more Clinton opens her mouth, the more she annoys the voters.

Why don't you guys take a long walk on a short sea-side pier; let Senator Obama get on with his fight with the Bush family and McCain and cheer like hell when he, by far the best Democrat in politics today, walks into the White House and begins the process of healing a very sick country.

Malcolm


by malc19ken on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:39:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 16)

AMEN !

Well said.

P.S.  People here can brush this off all they want. Its not going to change the damage done.

I'm not even white nor from some small town. But I'm offended.

If any white politician said something like this about Blacks committing crimes because they are bored & bitter - We would have the NAACP, Jackson, & the entire White Liberal base of the party crying racism.

This is the "politically correct double standard" that killed the Democratic party in the 80's & 90's. This is why we lost millions of white reagan democrats for for almost two decades.

Red state democrats who endorsed Obama must be having nightmares.


by latinfighter on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:30:07 AM EST

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (1.00 / 7)

"This is why we lost millions of white reagan democrats for for almost two decades."

To which I say, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way permanently out.  They are all going to die soon.  Obamacrats have recruited 18-21 year olds into the fold and they'll be with us for 50-70 years!!!!!!!  F the Reagan Democrats, which is an oxymoron anyway.


by reggie44pride on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:33:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 10)

Where are these 18-21 kids you are talking about?

Is Obama winning by a landslide?

Is Obama leading McCain?

Obama has lost 7 out of 8 of the largest states.

He would probably lose 5 of the next 7 .

You must be talking about 18-21 yr. old Liberal White kids & black kids.

You must be forgetting the kids of working class reagan democrats? You must have forgetting kids of Latinos & Asians.

What die soon are you talking about?  You think all these white working class people have No kids ?

What a stupid comment ! The entire black community & white liberals can sing Kumbaya & they would be a minority compared to the size of these " working class reagan democrats".

You think only their parents are offended by Obama's racist, elitist comments ?

Sorry brother Reggie, these same people that you just F'd will bury your IDOL in November.

What kids ??? damn! lol

You think the sons & daughters of these people are stupid ? They know an insult when they hear one. damn.


by latinfighter on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:47:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (none / 0)

Young Latinos are voting for Obama, and apparantly will not do so for Hillary in Nov. if she wins.

http://news.ncmonline.com/news/view_arti cle.html?article_id=cb2b93cf8affd1b4d004 798619848239


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:09:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 6)

im a young latino (i prefer hispanic, or better yet mexican american!whoop whoop!) and im voting for hillary thank you very much.

i hate it when people try to group us altogether.


--++++Stay Gold, Ponyboy!++++--
by amde on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:13:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (none / 0)

Who grouped ALL Hispanics together.  I did not say ALL young Hispanics are voting for Obama. I said "Latinos are voting for Obama"-- as in, SOME young Latinos, as indicated in the study I cited, are voting for him (in contrast to what the above commenter suggested).  We can do without unfounded accusations of racism.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:38:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (none / 0)

no one was calling you racist. whats racist about saying how i, a young latino, do not like being grouped with all other young people in general who have blind admiration of sen. obama?

sorry you were offended----


--++++Stay Gold, Ponyboy!++++--
by amde on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:46:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (none / 0)

Um... thats what polls do and thats how voters are targeted if you don't like it than perhaps you should curb your interest in politics. Because in politics we talk about things like demographics.


Hey guys? You know we won right? You can stop the doooooomsaying now.
by JDF on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:30:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I wish I was mexican american! (none / 0)

oh but you can... its really simple: all you have to do is click your ruby red shoes three times and wish away...

hahaa. jk


--++++Stay Gold, Ponyboy!++++--
by amde on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 06:00:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 2)

What is this, "Logans Run"? (70's movie - for those "18 - 21" who aren't as ancient as some of us).  


by AnnC on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:10:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 2)

Next they will be chanting for Clinton supporters to " renewwwwwwwwww"


by monstergrrl on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:07:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (none / 0)

Logan's Run. Ha!

reminds my of my childhood. going to have to watch that again now...


by the Walrus on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 06:51:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry - but your comment left me (2.00 / 2)

speechless.

Really.

I'm sorry that you're so angry.


by CoyoteCreek on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:00:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 2)

This is ridiculous.  Number one, stop continuing this idea that all Obama supporters are 18-22, its insulting to the rest of us.  More importantly, saying that people are going to die off... I agree, speechless.

However, for the rest of people, Obama is too close to Reagan, who is terrible (and he was).  But the greatest members of the democratic party are the ones who voted for Reagan?  How does this make sense?


by labor nrrd on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:27:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (none / 0)

It's the truth.  Sorry if it disagrees with you.  The Reagan Democrat collalition is slowly fading.  In its place, younger Democrats that Obama has brought into the party's wings will define us for decades!

Sorry. I didn't say it as well as I should have.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uR88nKyKj 3U


by reggie44pride on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:37:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (none / 0)

It might not be pleasant to talk about but people do die...and and it does have an effect on politics. Do you really think there is going to be a lot of working class "Reagan" Democrats left 25 years from now?

I don't.


Hey guys? You know we won right? You can stop the doooooomsaying now.
by JDF on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:31:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 1)

"Reagan Democrat" is nothing more of a moniker.

I'm 23 years old, and I'd class myself with "Reagan Democrats," even though I was barely alive on the eve of his second term.

I think a more fitting moniker is "Lunchbox Dems" or better "Middle Income Whites," but the demographic doesn't die out with those who didn't vote Reagan.

I'm more interested in Economic and other "hard" policy than social groupthink.  And I'm gay, to boot.

"Reagan Dems" sure do love to split their tickets.  You'll see me vote Dem for all downticket races this year, but I'm still iffy on that President box.


by novayahavoc on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:38:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (none / 0)

Reagan Democrat is actually a specific historical term referring to working class whites angry at Carter's incompetence, staflation, racial busing issues, and perceived moral decay and crime. Class is only part of the equation as many working class whites continued to vote Democratic in the 1980s. What really killed the Dems in the 1980s was the catastrophic decline in union jobs and union voters.  By 1992 it took a new direction - Bill Clinton - to win back working class whites. But people often forget that Bill Clinton's greatest gain was with middle class suburbanites and not working class whites. The exception to that is rural whites in AR and LA, but elsewhere Clinton still lost. It was suburban moderates angry at the rightward cultural turn of the GOP in 1992 that turned states like CA, NJ, IL and PA to the Democratic Party for good. They voted for Bush in 1988 and haven't gone Republican since.

Working class whites today don't count as "Reagan Democrats." They don't carry the same racial and cultural baggage as in 1980. And there are fewer of them than in the past.


by elrod on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:10:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

25 years from now (none / 0)

You young folks are going to be hearing about how you're yesterday's news and need to get out of the way so the new generation of 2030-something can take your place. The funny thing is, there was quite a bit of that in the 60s, and indeed I've seen some quotes from young Hillary Clinton to that effect--so in a sense she and others of her cohort are just getting back a bit of what they were dishing out back in the day.


by Alice in Florida on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:42:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 1)

Obamacrats have recruited 18-21 year olds into the fold and they'll be with us for 50-70 years!!!!!!!

This age group tends to be extremely passionate, but also extremely idealistic.  If Obama is elected, he will not be able to deliver on everything he is saying he will, especially the war (something Samantha Power told the British before she resigned).  This age group will get ticked off and walk away long before anyone else.


Another Clintonista against John McCain
by psychodrew on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:35:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 2)

I didn't think of that..

LOL


by DTaylor on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:33:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 8)

No offense.

it does not help that 80% of All the Senior Bloggers in places like Kos, Mydd, Open Left are Almost All Young Very Liberal White Males who are  35 yrs, or younger.

None of these kids saw the damage to the Democratic party in the 80's of being too Far Left & Politically Correct.

All it takes is one bad landslide election & this party will lose its edge.

The gains of the party has a lot more to do with the destruction caused by George W. Bush than any embrace of achievement by the far left.

American values are not any more liberal today than at anytime. Its all about Bush.

This is why McCain is still Very Much Competitive despite all the problems of this country.

This is the 2nd major incident that liberals have Looked the Other way when Obama offended white people & all americans.

This will come back to hurt the party.


by latinfighter on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:39:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 4)

I don't think the dailykos thing is value driven.  I think its all about getting the internet bloggers their personal seat at the table regardless of policy.


by DTaylor on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:46:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (none / 0)

Nader? Yes. Bradley? No. Nader voters actually took away votes from Gore. Without Nader, Gore easily gets the 537 votes in Florida to win.


by elrod on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:11:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (none / 0)

Well put.


by Al Depansu on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 12:40:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 8)

Thank you.

Excellent double standard you raise.  It's refreshing to see that more and more people understand why Obama's comments are so... um... incendiary.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:14:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (none / 0)

They were incendiary and I understand that they were incendiary- and I understand that some people were offended by them (I also think some people thought he was right and they were glad that he noticed what is going on in those small communities.)

Regardless though when did it become a bad thing for a candidate to speak the truth. If McCain had said something like this it would've been heralded as "straight talk," and Clinton (Bill) said basically the same thing in 1991.


Hey guys? You know we won right? You can stop the doooooomsaying now.
by JDF on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:36:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A couple of deep breaths might help n/t (none / 0)


by bookish on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 11:58:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 8)

This is a great diary.  Very well demonstrated, and I appreciate your point.

Also, I admire your gutsiness posting this on DKos--I bet it's going over like a lead balloon over there!

Rec'd!


No candidacy is more important than the right to vote.
by hornplayer on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 07:39:28 AM EST

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 7)

Thank you!

It's not as hostile on Daily Kos as they usually are to my opinions.  I am growing to like this place more, but I was politically born & raised on DKos so it's hard seeing what's happening there.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:15:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 6)

Well, maybe I spoke too soon.  Bizarre insulting one-line comments are appearing there like locusts and I'm now being accused of bigotry.  sighs


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:45:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Chin up! (2.00 / 5)


by CoyoteCreek on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:03:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 1)

Sorry, man.  I, too, spent 4 years reading and chatting on Kos.  Then I got called a racist and I haven't really looked back since.

Unfortunately, there's just no room for independent thinkers over there...


No candidacy is more important than the right to vote.
by hornplayer on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:09:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 1)

I got weary of Kos in '06 when it got caught up in the tunnel-vision zeitgeist of Congressional elections solely by the DNC playbook.

My State, Michigan, was left out entirely, and there wasn't even any coverage of the very heated Gubernatorial here.  But they sure did love to trumpet victories in Michigan as part of that "Progressive Wave."

Now Michigan doesn't matter to them.  Again.  Or the thousands of hunters, churchgoers, or small towners here who tip the State blue.

C'est la vie.


by novayahavoc on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:43:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (none / 0)

Most of those are from folks who migrated from DailyKos. Since this site is usually more Hillary friendly, they sometimes feel the need to insult other Dems just for fun. They have not thought for the GE.


"The Bumble Bee flies because it thinks it can."
by LadyEagle on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:46:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (none / 0)

There are still good things on dKos, but they're on subjects other than presidential candidates. The candidate diaries are a waste of time.


by Alice in Florida on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 07:14:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm sure it took .... (none / 0)

a lot of intestinal fortitude to post this at dKos.

I'm also sure you are probably in the process of being bob johnsoned over there by now.  Anything that is short of high praise of Obama gets one on a short list to humiliate kept by the oh so high and mighty over there.

I left when the 'strike' was called, because without the folks who also left, there would have been no refuse for a Clinton supporter.  I'm amazed to find folks with the ability to see beyond the hype still posting there.  

Get some armor, you may need it tilting at windmills and all.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:04:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 8)

Great diary.  I think your point about the importance of avoiding offensive language, even if based on an element of sociological truth, is very well taken.

I remember when Jesse Jackson said that he became more afraid when young black men were walking behind him.  He could get away with a such a statement as a black leader himself.  And the statement is based on the rational fact that young black men commit more crimes than other demographic groups.  Imagine, though, if Hillary said she became frightened every time there were black men on the street, because they are more likely to be criminals than white men or women.  That would be the end of her campaign.  


Jim Martin for Senate!
by markjay on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 07:48:43 AM EST

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 4)

Thank you!  And yes, that is the exact double standard going on here.

But it's okay to disparage small town America because it's become monolithically accepted that the inanity and backwardness of small town America is just an "incontrovertible academic far-left-wing truth."


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:18:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama's typical white grandmother (1.50 / 2)

Obama even used this kind of racism by saying that his grandmother was a "typical white woman" when she said something about being afraid of AAs when walking alone.  Obama KNOWS that he is using racist remarks to stir black voters to vote against Hillary.

That is so repugnant to me that I will never vote for him under any circumstance.  He has shown himself to be willing to use the racial pain and anger to get votes and that is frightening to me that he would stoop to that.  I feels like what I read about Germany in the 1930s.


by macmcd on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:33:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama's typical white grandmother (none / 0)

The fact that you basically just called Obama a Nazi says all I need to know about your attitude and political preferences.

If you think not voting for him out of whatever twisted principle you would spout is worth getting into a war with Iran or a conservative supreme court than you belong over at Red State.


Hey guys? You know we won right? You can stop the doooooomsaying now.
by JDF on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:39:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 11)

"It doesn't matter if what he said was arguably "true."
It is inappropriate to say something disparaging and then blithely defend it solely on the basis of its truth. "

This is it!!!

When I heard Obama defending himself by saying he was just telling the truth I just have to wonder if he's purposely sabotaging his campaign.

It's disappointing to see any liberal defending any broad stereotype of this nature as 'the truth'.

I think this has been the best diary on the subject I've read here. Thank you BPK80.  Keep writing 'em!


by Apostle on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 08:05:30 AM EST

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 4)

Thank you 10,000,000 for your kind remarks.


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:18:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 8)

Great diary.  I was watching CNN yesterday, and they obviously though their viewers were as dumb as dirt.  They kept questioning how anyone could be offended by Obama's saying PA voters are bitter, when they in fact are.  Obviously if they listened to the entire comment, they would see it was the latter part of the comment that offended.  Some of the earlier part of Obama's comment were accurate, but you don't end by insulting an entire group of people - especially when you need their vote in 10 days.


by AnnC on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:14:28 AM EST

Thank you (2.00 / 9)

I know I put this in a comment somewhere else on mydd but I'll repeat it because I thought it was telling (albeit an anecdote).

I live in PA.  I asked a friend at a birthday gathering on Saturday if she had heard what Obama said about Pennsylvanians and she replied,

"No I'm not cultured enough to follow the news but I am going to church tomorrow with my gun to spread hate on immigrants.  And naturally, I do this all because I am poor."

A lot of people's jaws drop and their eyes get very wide when they hear his comment in its entirety.  Another friend of mine gasped when he read it.  My sister did as well.  

No one cared about the "bitter" part, but the God/guns/antipathy, "46 year old black man named Barack Obama" and "working class lunch-pail" parts were very stirring.  Frankly, I was shocked to see the speech myself.  

I'm not in a small town so I couldn't claim personal offense but I was very very surprised that he said something so unsavvy.


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:25:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (none / 0)

I go to college in small town central PA and I see EXACTLY what Obama is talking about.  These people had it good with the coal mines and manufacturing back in the day, but nowadays all that is gone.  The people I meet have to work jobs on the side to get by or drive an hour to get to a city with a decent job.  They ARE bitter.  Guns, God and each other are pretty much all that is left over from the coal/manufacturing days.  Now take into context these remarks by Obama.  They were made in California in an attempt to relate the Pennsylvania mindset to people out there.  Obama probably could have relayed this better, but the truth of his comments absolutely remain.  Central PA is bitter, and I have seen it first hand.  Obama's campaign is all about offering hope to these people.  Hope in a new future where they can enjoy more of life, instead of clinging to God and guns while barely scraping by.


"Success is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
by CheesyDutchman on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:54:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (none / 0)

No.

See, I'm from Michigan.  One of those bitter states.  One where "all the jobs are gone!  We're doomed!"

Gov. Granholm turned the narrative into "Investment in Human Capital" and "A New Michigan."  You know, "hope."  

Yeah, voters in rust belt states are angry over the economy, and they're voting Clinton because they think she will be better on the economy.

You don't insult your opponent's supporters in the same political party.  And these comments, I'm sure, have dazzled lots of voters in OH, PA, MI, WI, IO, MO, KY, WV... and not in the positive sense.

And I'm sure it's done the same to many of the elected officials in each state.  Saying anything of that sort about Michigan voters in particular is political suicide.

I think we can safely put Michigan in the Red column should Obama be the nominee, now.


by novayahavoc on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:49:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (none / 0)

I'm sorry but I really fail to see how this is at all offensive to somebody voting in PA.

The polls and local media coverage reflect this.

Remember, all politics is local, right?

And also, I cannot fathom how you can say McSame will win MI when his economic policy is an absolute dud.

Last time I checked, most voters vote policy and Obama is still a Democrat with huge independent support.


"Success is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
by CheesyDutchman on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:36:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (1.00 / 2)

Sen. Obama will be at his very best in the next week. He is going to use the controversy as a way to connect deeply with voters (including rural Pennsylvanians). He has a plan. I don't expect miracles in the Pa. outcome. But just watch: Many people will marvel at his political skills.


A former hillary supporter.
by Cristalgirl on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:23:33 AM EST

I don't know about that (2.00 / 5)

This isn't the Wright controversy where he can be himself and express his sincere vision, however quixotic some may characterize it, of unity.  

This is going to be a situation where a very polished and well spoken intellectual is going to have to feign solidarity with the "small towns," that he was exposed for disparaging.

I think a silver-tongue speech is only going to make matters worse.  The more shiny his rhetoric, the more it will only reinforce the problematic imagine that he is a self-styled superior intellectual.  And yet the more brawny and earthy he attempts to appear, the more he will seem insincere.  And, to quote Tori Amos (yay!), "You can't be something you're not... you just... can't."

It will look like he's a smooth talking schmoozer back from San Francisco trying to say, "Aw, but c'mon guys, vote for me anyway.  I didn't mean it like that."  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:30:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't know aboubad tt that (2.00 / 1)

''very polished and well spoken intellectual''.
I really take grate in your framing of him as a intellectual. As if that is a bad thing. What is wrong if he is clever? My god.
What's the point of a education, what's the poiunt of even getting up, if someone is going to put you down if you are smart.

Have you seen the present President?? Do you want that for another 4 years. You can't frame Obama as being Kerry, because Obama is a different kettle of a fish. He was born to a single mom, the boy done good.

You are looking for the 'gotcha' moment. Save for him being found in bed with a 'man' this is not it.


A former hillary supporter.
by Cristalgirl on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:07:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't know aboubad tt that (2.00 / 5)

There's a big difference between intelligence and intellectualism.

Intelligence is an innate quality (brainpower).  Inellectualism is a voluntarily adopted self-styling.  The former is a positive trait.  The latter, in my opinion, ranges from neutral to negative.  

Being smart doesn't bother people.  But "acting like your so smart" rubs people the wrong way.  


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:24:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't know aboubad tt that (none / 0)

Actually, thanks to the GOP, being smart bothers people...  especially if you come from an Ivy-League school...  they will paint such a candidate as an "intellectual elite" with all of its negative connotations regardless of anything the candidate says.  It has been their theme for years now... "The Democrats are out of touch with common folk, come, have a beer with our guy"...

I quote Aaron Sorkin regarding a rival politician's concern of the problems of "everyday" Americans:  they " are interested in one thing and one thing only, making you afraid of it and telling you who's to blame for it.  That's how you win elections..."

Will the Republicans attempt to make hay out of this comment should Obama get the nomination...?  Probably.  Will it work...?  If we let it, sure, anything will work.

The problem is that campaigns of fear have given rise to these very feelings that Obama was describing...  Tom Tancredo and his cadre of miscreants targeted small-towns and rural Americans with their xenophobic rants about "scary brown people" with some measurable successes...  The NRA uses fear of government control to prevent any meaningful legislative control of assault weapons and handguns... Don't get me started on the fear peddled by Evangelists when it comes to homosexuals and others they deem as ills on society.  

Do I understand why people are offended...?  Sure...  But I also understand why the Right-wing tactics of fear mongering in campaigns works so well too...


McCain/Palin... even scarier than Bush/Cheney... and that's saying something!
by JenKinFLA on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:00:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't know aboubad tt that (2.00 / 1)

There's enormous anti-intellectualism on this site. Last night someone asked what were the alternative means of assessing students Obama proposed. I answered with a few examples, including portfolio assessments. Then the diarist said I was using "big words" as if that was an insult. But that's what that method is called - and he or she could have found out what that means by a quick google search. And stuff like that happens all the time here.  If you correct information on the economy under Clinton, you're bashing him -- there's no challenge to the facts, just the idea that you can't disagree with the party line.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:22:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't know aboubad tt that (none / 0)

actually intellectualism is being devoted to the exercise of intellect and or intellectual pursuits.

Intellect is the capacity for knowledge and the ability and the power of knowing as distinguishes from simple feeling.

Being intellectual is being given to study, reflection, or speculation AND being guided chiefly by intellect rather than emotion or experience.

In other words being intellectual is to be the exact opposite of our current President.

There is a great book called Anti-intellectualism in American Life by Richard Hofstadter. I would advise anyone to give it a read because it not only gives insight into the importance of intellectualism but into how and why it is looked down on by much of America.

You may view it as a negative... but quite frankly I hate the thought of voting for anyone who ISN'T intellectual.


Hey guys? You know we won right? You can stop the doooooomsaying now.
by JDF on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:47:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Arrogance is like pornography (2.00 / 3)

You recognize it when you see (or in Obama's case hear)it.  Obama cannot help but be arrogant and that has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence and nothing to do, really, with being an intellectual.  Some of my favorite professors were very intelligent and intellectual philosophy professors and most of my least favorite were arrogant psychology professors.  I kept saying, "These people are supposed to be professionals."  

They were all highly intelligent and very intellectual but some were arrogant fools.  Mr. Obama has had a lot of trouble keeping his arrogance under wraps lately.


by macmcd on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:41:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "It Isn't the Wright Controversy" (2.00 / 2)

You're entirely correct.  These are not someone else's words...they are Obama's own.

To continue insisting that it was "true" demonstrates the political tin ear that lies beneath the surface of the man.  You don't pile insult on top of injury if you want to be seen as "in touch" with people.  

I learned an acronym during my years at dKos...IOKIYAR.  I see Obama's supporters working from that same mindset...it's okay if you're Barack Obama.


by creeper1014 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:58:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "It Isn't the Wright Controversy" (none / 0)

This makes no sense.  Seriously.

Unless you continue to "cling" to the thought that this is somehow an insult.  That's the only way you get traction out of this.

You may be insulted.  Fine.  But to paint this as a political tin ear is goofy.  Watch a bunch of videos about voters from PA being interviewed about this.  Not everyone is insulted - and this is even from people who say they aren't even planning on voting for Barack!  Looks more and more like Hillary and her people are the ones who are most interested in keeping this bullshit alive.  Desperation makes people do crazy things, I guess.

Obama is winning - by an increasing margin.  He has run an incredible campaign against the "inevitable" Clinton machinery (which clearly is in a state of disrepair).  Facts is facts.


by sick of it all on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:58:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think he's going to have a hard time (2.00 / 5)

... explaining away these statements - because he cannot be sincere IMHO.   He does best when he can come across as sincere as Mom and apple pie.  I don't think he can look at "small town America" and explain his words as being "inappropriate phraseology".  

He compounded the whole thing to start with by getting angry and railing on McCain and Clinton saying that people ARE bitter.  Being angry about a situation is natural and understandable.  Being bitter is generally accepted as a flaw that one needs to work on:  "bitter old woman", "bitter hatred", "bitter ex".  Does Obama UNDERSTAND that bitterness in one's behavior is considered a personal fault?

He compounded his statements again by saying that he used ill-chosen words - i.e. he really meant what he said but that he's sorry if some were offended by his words.

I'll be watching and listening.  The Obama supporters will laud his replies .... the Clinton supporters will not.  The undecided - remains to be seen how Obama will fair.


by Southern Mouth on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:12:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Please, not another speech! (2.00 / 5)


by CoyoteCreek on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:06:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Amen!!!!!!!! (2.00 / 1)

I wonder how many sins he believes he can smooth over with his oily, sweet-sounding, condenscending words.


by macmcd on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:44:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Please, not another speech! (2.00 / 1)

He already used up all the American flags...


by MediaFreeze on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:54:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the thing i find amusing (1.00 / 6)

is that the hillary club of mydd has taken it upon their shoulders to explain to rural pa's that they are indeed the ones who should be deeply offended. (as if any "deeply religious" read evangelical fundamentalist frequents these blogs)

talk about elitist crap...


by citizendave on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:49:49 AM EST

Re: the thing i find amusing (2.00 / 3)

I didn't tell anyone to be offended.

I explained why the comment was more empirically insulting than some Obama supporters have made it out to be.


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:26:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the thing i find amusing (1.33 / 3)

so be it if the truth is insulting.

is it better to be patronizing? is that the quality we are looking for in the next POTUS?


by citizendave on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:25:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: the thing i find amusing (2.00 / 1)

Oh yes, it's far better to candy coat everything, and act dumb.  That's exactly what we need.  Obama is TOO smart to be POTUS!  WE'RE DOOMED!  ;)


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:26:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Rural Voters (2.00 / 1)

While not a rural Pennsylvanian, I am a rural Iowan.  No one had to explain to me why I should feel offended at the statement that bitter rural people cling to guns and religion.  

This is one of the most condescending things I've heard in a campaign in years. Obama's continued insistence on the truth of it is foolish.  It may well cost him the nomination.


by creeper1014 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:06:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rural Voters (2.00 / 3)

Cost him the election?  If Hillary has her way, then yes.

Otherwise, this is silly melodrama.

Obama was talking about the level of political engagement of people who are bitter.  Since they don't think anyone can really do anything about the economy, they cling to other more tangible policies.

Keep quoting him out of context; you'll earn many supporters in this echo chamber.  Most people can see the quote for what it was - not an insult at all (and thus fundamentally disproving the basis of this diary).  Just a reasoned assessment of the level of our political discourse in this country and why we are in the shit we are in.

Obama was right.  Not because he spoke an insult that was true, but because there was no insult, just the truth about people and politics.


by sick of it all on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:26:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Rural Voters (2.00 / 2)

Hit the nail on the head.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:28:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am deeply religious (2.00 / 4)

The reason I go to church and believe in god is not because I'm bitter, but because it gives me hope.  

My faith in god gives me hope.  How dare Obama belittle faith!  


by searchforsolidarity on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:11:39 AM EST

Re: I am deeply religious (2.00 / 3)

Thank you for your comment.


Young lifelong Democrat. One of over 3,000,000 voters who kicked McCain and Palin out of Pennsylvania, permanently.
by BPK80 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 10:28:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am deeply religious (2.00 / 1)

you missed the point. all the candidates go to church, which, by the way, i do not consider to be a qualification to be president.

it is the other candidates and their supporters that are telling you mr obama has belittled your faith.

we have a president that "god spoke to" and told him he should be president. i find that to be more offensive to religious people than anything i've heard so far from obama or any of the other campaigns. any person who voted for w because of the god/values factor got duped and should be bitter.


by citizendave on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:38:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

IF you are sincere (2.00 / 2)

then you haven't been actually listening to Obama.  Those who actually listen to him are really getting nervious about some of what he has been saying.  You can tell by the increased vitriol in their comments.


by macmcd on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:48:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am deeply religious (2.00 / 6)

It also begs the question, if Obama believes that it is bitterness that drives people to religion, what bitterness is he assuaging as he "clings" to Reverend Wright (for 20 years)?

Why is his religious practice borne out of faith, but the religious practice of those who may not vote for him (and this was what he was trying to explain away -- his failure to capture the votes of rural Americans) borne out of bitterness and fear?


Bitch is the New Black
by Iphie on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:46:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Zing! Comment Of the Day. n/t (2.00 / 1)


by creeper1014 on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:12:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am deeply religious (2.00 / 2)

Oh why not give this a try...

Obama did not say that bitterness drives people to religion.

In fact, he was talking about the level of engagement in politics due to the fact that they are bitter over Washington not actually addressing their problems.  That some people (he did not say all) cling to guns and religion instead of expending effort on issues they perceive as fruitless, like the economy or healthcare.

Since you have so brutally twisted the issue of faith and bashed Obama with it, I have low expectations on this one.


by sick of it all on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:31:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am deeply religious (none / 0)

No, he wasn't talking about the level of engagement in politics. He was talking about the reasons people in PA seemingly don't want to vote for him.* On the one hand, he says that he doesn't buy the argument that his relative unpopularity is racially motivated. Then in the next paragraph he seems to contradict himself by attributing voters' skepticism to the fact that he is a "46 year old black man named Barack Obama." Why would they be skeptical of a man fitting that description unless these voters were basing their rejection of him on race?

Obama was trying to explain away his lack of support to a caricature of small-minded, small town voters who are skeptical of black men and prefer to cling to their guns and religion instead of coming to the light and accepting that "He is the One." This is what the entire thing is about -- Obama trying to explain away his lack of support. Of course, he comes to the conclusion that it is the failings of the voters and not him that are at fault.

*Interesting that he was explaining his lack of support in PA to a group of his financial supporters in CA. My guess as to why he needed to address this issue at all (and in a state that has already held its primary) is because he was seeking to reassure his supporters that he still can win this -- something he wouldn't have to do if his supporters weren't worried that he couldn't. It is with their contributions, after all, that he is massively outspending Clinton and it doesn't seem to be doing the trick any better in PA than it did in OH.


Bitch is the New Black
by Iphie on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 04:54:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am deeply religious (none / 0)

There are so many assumptions in your comment, to wit the supposition that Obama's supporters are somehow worried and need reassurance.  Obama has closed the gap significantly on Clinton with superdelegates - and is winning in pledged delegates.  This was supposed to be hers to lose (and clearly, she has lost it - in oh-so-many ways).

Why he would be talking about the voters in PA with supporters in CA is beyond you?!  Seriously?  Or is this just one more thing to try and pin on Obama.  "How dare he talk to supporters in CA about voters in PA!  The nerve!"  Please.

Obama was talking about the issue of voters voting for him in PA.  And guess what?  According to him, it has to do with how they engage in politics.  Jesus.  Is that so hard to understand?  Apparently so.

Finally, this has nothing to do with him thinking "He is the One" - in fact Hillary owns the inevitablility meme.  She clearly was not prepared to actually run a campaign.  Obama has had to work his ass off to get where he is nationally.  Your assumption that he is somehow amazed that these people aren't voting for him is perhaps the most egregious in your long list of silly assumptions.  


by sick of it all on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:47:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am deeply religious (none / 0)

Actually, I said that it was my guess that Obama was trying to reassure his donors -- trying to dismiss my comment by calling it an assumption is kind of silly given that I identified it as speculation. It is interesting though, that you chose to focus on the footnote and not the substance. I was refuting your apparent misreading of his words  -- you have stated that he was talking about the way people engage in politics, when really what he was talking about was what he would like to believe are the reasons for his poor showing thus far.

He says that people aren't buying his message of hope because they are disinclined to accept the messenger, i.e., a black man named Barack Obama

when they hear a pitch that is premised on not being cynical about government, then a part of them just doesn't buy it. And when it's delivered by -- it's true that when it's delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama (laugher), then that adds another layer of skepticism (laughter).

Full transcript right here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mayhill-fo wler/obama-no-surprise-that-ha_b_96188.h tml

And yeah, given that more and more people are questioning why, even with the enormous amounts of money he has spent, he can't seem to close the deal, I can see why he would need to come up with all sorts of justifications and excuses. But asserting that the voters are at fault because they're bigoted, and can only console themselves with guns and religion doesn't seem like a wise strategy. It's probably not a good idea to insult the very people you want on your side.

I'm sorry that that's such a difficult concept to understand, but shouldn't a unifier be a little less divisive?


Bitch is the New Black
by Iphie on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:03:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am deeply religious (none / 0)

Sure.  Whatever you want to justify.  Continue to call it an insult, contrary to the evidence.

(The "unifier" card is rich.  Really.  Especially coming from the other camp.)


by sick of it all on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:13:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's 'What's the Matter with Kansas' (2.00 / 3)

The diarist makes a very important reference to this book, written by Thomas Frank in 2004  in response to the despair felt by many Democrats and moderates at the outcome of the 2000 and 2004 presidential elections. The book is subtitled "How Conservatives Won the Heart of America". For some good reading, just Google "Obama Thomas Frank".
The acronym WORM (What Obama Really Meant) has already begun working its way into common parlance. The reality is that we now have a better insight into how Obama and his campaign strategists really think. Democrats still have the chance to choose between two very different mind-sets.
This diary makes an important contribution to the dialogue about the importance of "framing" and the choice between which candidate's core values the Democrats really want to put forward to lead our party and the nation going forward. It requires further examination and reflection.
Recommended.

by pan230oh on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:20:05 AM EST

Re: It's 'What's the Matter with Kansas' (2.00 / 1)

Bill Clinton has said the same thing in public interviews regarding wedge issues.

And Clinton says the same thing behind closed doors.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/18 8673.php
"I have been in meetings with the Clintons and their advisors where very clinical things were said in a very-detached tone about unwillingness of working class voters to trust government -- and Bill Clinton -- and about their unfortunate (from a Clinton perspective) proclivity to vote on life-style rather than economic issues. To see Hillary going absolutely over the top to smash Obama for making clearly more humanly sympathetic observations in this vein, is just amazing. Even more so to see her pretending to be a gun-toting non-elite. Give us a break!"


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:24:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The difference is (2.00 / 3)

that Bill Clinton has never been condescending about the American middle-class and Obama has pretty much only been condescending about the American middle-class.  He doesn't have any relationship with it at all and it is Bill Clinton's roots.


by macmcd on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:51:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The difference is (2.00 / 1)

Are you talking about Barack Obama?  The guy running for President?  Not having any relationship with the middle class?

Ha!

And Clinton out-grew those "roots" about $108 million dollars ago.  Unless you believe the dye-job Hillary is trying to concoct.


by sick of it all on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 02:34:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Experience and Discipline (2.00 / 1)

The operative line there is "meetings with Clinton and their advisors". Let's not kid ourselves that both sides are well aware of the language manipulating tactics that cost the Democrats two Presidential elections.
The bottom line is - this statement has pulled back the veil so that we can all see the real Obama ("pay no attention to that man behind the curtain") for what he is - he sees these voters as simply a means to an end, a group of people who can be easily manipulated. More than anything else, these are the actions of a candidate who needs more discipline and experience.
by pan230oh on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 01:43:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Experience and Discipline (none / 0)

Yeah - keep him in Washington long enough to "boil the hope out of him" and make him more like Hil, Bill, and McBush!  There's a great idea!

If you don't like Obama's honesty, fine.  But stop the bullshit about experience and discipline.  Last I looked, Obama is the one running the successful campaign.  Just sayin'...


by sick of it all on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 05:52:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Experience and Discipline (none / 0)

and exactly how does running a successful campaign ensure success as a President?


by pan230oh on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:35:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Experience and Discipline (none / 0)

actually I should have said - how do we know he's run a more successful campaign -- he hasn't won the nomination yet


by pan230oh on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:36:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Experience and Discipline (none / 0)

Uhh, it's a good indication he can run an administration/cabinet, he can appeal to many voters, he can build grassroots support, et cetera.

Maybe you don't understand. Last I saw, you troll-rated people just because they were Obama supporters and had too many mojo-ratings on a post.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 09:46:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (none / 0)

You don't seem to being honest, as you give this example:

Example 3:

"Big city voters vote for trendy fad du jour candidates because it gives  them a sense of self-identity otherwise lacking in the overwhelm and anonymity of congested urban life."  

I am not big city voter, live in a mid-sized city (40,000) in central massachusetts.  However, this has been a central argument.  Bill Clinton, these people aren't looking for a president, but a feeling.  Obama supporters derided as the kool kids or cultists, did you find that offensive?  Don't pretend that you think this would upset people because that's all I have heard on this site.


by labor nrrd on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:23:38 AM EST

LOL (none / 0)

You perfectly demonstrate the diarist's point.  Thank you.


by macmcd on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 12:52:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (2.00 / 2)

Excellent diary.

However, I think maybe you are denying us rural people self-awareness. That can be another form of elitism.

The comments were poorly phrased, although they might be well phrased for explain a different people to the audience- to build bridges of understanding.

I don't see the rural people I know being offended. Yes, there are people who have a deep faith independent of economic circumstance, but loss of hope does lead to faith. The usual routes
addiction-> AA or NA -> "a higher power".  Pointing this out would offend few.

The gun thing seems less well grounded, but to most democratic primary voters would appear a minor misunderstanding.

Most rural people I know have guns because they are useful tools, like chainsaws.  I have guns because I don't like coyotes eating my sheep or cougars eating my horses.

I hope to put an elk in my freezer, but I've yet to manage it, mainly because I don't enjoy killing things.

But I expect Barak or Hillary to have no more knowledge of that than I have of NY subway lines. No big deal.


by wrb on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:30:38 AM EST

Re: Why would anyone be offended? (none / 0)

But then -
I don't suspect that you go around telling people what are the best connections to get from Columbus Circle to Chinatown - as if you were the encyclopedia of the NY subway system.
by johnnygunn on